Talk:Settle–Carlisle line

Page move

What exactly is the rationale for moving this to "Settle to Carlisle Railway". Settle and Carslile is by far the most common name for the line. G-Man 20:07, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I agree, this move is illogical as it's universally known as the "Settle and Carlisle Railway". Who moved it? (I can't spot the move with a cursory look...) -- Arwel 22:36, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

moved again to Settle-Carlisle. By the following reasoning:

• "Settle-Carlisle" Google search 5,820 hits
• "Settle to Carlisle" Google search, 2,620 hits
• "Settle and Carlisle" Google search, 339 hits

The most common name is Settle-Carlisle, that is what we should use with redirects from everywhere else. The S&C is a colloquialism I think, I'm not sure what the Act of Parliament used but ess-'n'-see is easier to say than ess-t'-see (in my best Yarkshire/Cumbrian accent)

Your search results are pretty meaningless as words such as 'and' and 'to' are excluded from the search.

Also all the books I have refer to it as the 'Settle and Carslile Railway' also nearly all the links are to Settle and Carslile. I dont see why it shouldent be moved back G-Man 23:08, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No axe to grind either way but I've just fixed all links to the redirect pages to point to Settle-Carlisle Railway. Will watch this page and undo if necessary. Dave.Dunford 19:13, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As a train-spotting Yorkshireman who has read widely on the subject of the S&C I think it ludicrous to call it anything but the Settle and Carlisle. It is in this form that it has gained the fame that grants it a place in this project. In addition, throughout the article reference is continually made to the S&C, not the S-C or the S to C. --Northener 14:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Settle-Carlisle railway or Settle-Carlisle line is how it has been known officially throughout its history and how Network Rail, the train operators and the locals still refer to it. The hyphen isn't usually pronounced - it's just a hyphen. "And" is conventionally used in the titles of railway companies - Stockton and Darlington Railway, Liverpool and Manchester Railway etc. - which the Settle-Carlisle never was. "Settle and Carlisle" seems to be mainly used in the titles of YouTube videos. Northern rock (talk) 18:09, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Nasty swimmer: You're commenting on a thread that was last posted to sixteen years ago. The most recent discussion (which is now closed) is at #Requested move 12 October 2016, below. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 06:06, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 27 September 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: The new suggested page title is not appropriate. However, editors have made a point about consistency regarding a different title, and yes, it matters but recognizability is another important factor. Simply because other articles have similar titles do not make it an universal truth. I kind of agree to RedRose's opinion and I think it's the domino effect which causes our shift to consistency. I hope that if editors are having any issue with naming systems, they will conduct RfCs. Lastly, with no prejudice, this page is "not moved". --QEDK (T ☕ C) 20:04, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

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Settle-Carlisle Line → Settle - Carlisle Line – A small edit, but according to the website seen here [1], on the SCL logo, there needs to be a space between the dash Nathan A RF (talk) 16:19, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I would strongly oppose any such move because Wikipedia style does not insert spaces on each side of an en-dash (see Dash). In addition, the Friends of the line use the correct format (see [2]), and the website you cite is inconsistent in its use of the dash, inserting spaces only in the logo and main heading (see [3] and [4]). The references in the article, including the BBC and the Craven Herald, do not insert spaces. Dbfirs 17:11, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Please see Nathan's talk page and its history --Northernhenge (talk) 18:23, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the notification. I'd assumed that Nathan was an innocent railway enthusiast, and I could see his argument, but it didn't hold on further investigation. Logos are sometimes not set out as formal English. Dbfirs 19:05, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Oppose as not per our style guides, though I would suggest a move to an em-dash en-dash version rather than a dash Settle–Carlisle Line. Keith D (talk) 20:50, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Oh, yes! The title should match the content, but it's an en-dash not an em-dash. (Thanks, I knew you meant en-dash) The short one is called a hyphen. I hadn't noticed that the redirect is the wrong way round. Does anyone object to Keith's suggested move over the redirect, then do a redirect from the hyphen version? There is no redirect from the em-dash title (Settle—Carlisle Line) but Wikipedia software seems to convert the em-dash to an en-dash in the search. If we do agree that the title should match the content with an en-dash, then a number of other articles will need to be edited. (I don't mind doing this, but will wait for others' opinions before taking any action.) Dbfirs 21:13, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Comment, If this is going to be moved, should this not be moved to Settle and Carlisle Railway? as that is what it is universally known as. G-13114 (talk) 23:01, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Since the saving of the line, the usual name is Settle–Carlisle Line, though there might be communities (not universes) where the word "and" is used. One such is the Settle and Carlisle Railway Trust. Dbfirs 00:06, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

• The en-dash is definitely preferable and is surely convention, with the semantic meaning of the en-dash (not em-dash) meaning from 1 to another. But please note Stafford to Manchester Line, Crewe to Derby Line, Crewe to Manchester Line, Leeds to Morecambe Line, Liverpool to Manchester Lines, etc in the infobox. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 23:58, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

  Yes, I've no objection to the word "to" (or even "from" if trains run the other way), but it is less common for this line. Wikipedia:Article titles#Deciding on an article title says we should look at what reliable sources call the line (in normal text, not in the logo). Dbfirs 06:38, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose, though I would prefer Settle to Carlisle. -mattbuck (Talk) 10:00, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
• Move to Settle to Carlisle Line, per WP:CONSISTENCY, since this seems to be the preferred format for such lines, e.g. Leeds to Morecambe Line, Liverpool to Wigan Line etc.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:13, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
• Move to Settle to Carlisle Line, per WP:CONSISTENCY. Did not receive opposition. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 05:18, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

  The en-dash form (or hyphen form) is more common in newspapers and official websites, hence is it the most common name, but I'll leave it to you to decide whether consistency trumps common name. Dbfirs 07:52, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose Settle to Carlisle Line; Support either Settle and Carlisle Line or retention of existing title. Why? Other than in areas that solely originate traffic (such as coal or iron ore), with no inwards traffic (other than empty wagons), railway lines are bidirectional. Some people in Carlisle do want to get to Settle. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:27, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

  @Redrose64: then surely all those other lines mentioned above are also wrong. Look at Category:Railway lines in North West England and you'll see that only Preston-Liverpool Line matches this one. The rest all use the "A to B" format. Similarly for other regions, Category:Railway lines in South East England etc. If you favour a wholesale of move of all those lines to the A-B format, then perhaps you should do an RM for it, but otherwise WP:CONSISTENCY is important here, unless there's some overwhelming other reason why this one is different from the others.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:52, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 12 October 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Love the nuances! I see no actual agreement here; however, I will go ahead with the slight mod of scrapping the hyphen in favor of an unspaced endash. And this with no prejudice as regards any near-future outcomes of perpheral discussions and move requests. (non-admin closure)  Paine  ^u/c 05:44, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

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Settle-Carlisle Line → Settle to Carlisle Line – I actually think something of a consensus was starting to form for this new title in the discussion above, but I won't challenge the close since it wasn't actually the proposed title - it will be easier to reopen with the new proposal. My reasoning? WP:CONSISTENCY mainly. Take a look at Category:Railway lines in North West England, and you'll see this one is clearly the outlier. All other lines are named with "A to B Line" format, for example Leeds to Morecambe Line, Liverpool to Wigan Line, etc. The argument made above that this terminology should only apply for one direction lines isn't really valid, since all those other examples are also two-way lines. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 11:58, 12 October 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. -- Tavix ^(talk) 19:27, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - pinging all those who took part in the discussion above, for fairness and clarity: Nathan A RF, Dbfirs, Northernhenge, Keith D, G-13114, Andy M. Wang, Mattbuck, Redrose64, QEDK. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 12:03, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
• The advantage of the dash is that it allows for both readings, 'to' and 'and'. I usually hear 'and'... RGloucester — ☎ 12:33, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

  @RGloucester: do you think this applies particularly to this line, while it does not apply to the other lines mentioned above?  — Amakuru (talk) 14:01, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

  The other lines are not usually called "X and X" line. This line is usually called "Settle and Carlisle", not "Settle to Carlisle", whereas "Glasgow to Edinburgh via Falkirk Line" is called that, not "Glasgow and Edinburgh via Falkirk Line". We don't need a foolish consistency here. RGloucester — ☎ 15:32, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

  It's usually called the Settle–Carlisle line (with an en-dash) in the press, on their official site and on the Friends of the Line site. Dbfirs 08:13, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

  When spoken, the dash is usually read as 'Settle and Carlisle'. I presume that you are not meaning to say that it is read as 'Settle dash Carlisle' or 'Settle Carlisle'. RGloucester — ☎ 14:22, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

  I suppose that depends on who is speaking. I've never heard the dash read as "and" but I expect some people say it that way. I just say "Settle Carlisle Line" without a conjunction. We don't want to imply that there are no other stations along the line. Dbfirs 15:32, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

  Plenty of sources do call it some variant on "Settle to Carlisle", for example [5][6][7][8], so it certainly isn't an unused term. And WP:CONSISTENCY is one of the key planks of the article title policy, so if we are going to deviate from the normal format, we should have a good reason to do so.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:50, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

  Thanks for the ping Amakuru (talk · contribs). I've always spoken its name as "the Settle-Carlisle". That's not saying that it's a railway line that runs between those two destinations. It's saying it's a collection of rail-related experiences that collectively have the name "Settle-Carlisle". My only authority for that is that I live near it and use it frequently. My suggestion is to name the article using whatever the standard convention is and have redirects for all sensible variants. --Northernhenge (talk) 15:28, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

• Comment – why not go with MOS:CAPS and MOS:DASH and sources like this one and use an en dash and lowercase line, as Settle–Carlisle line? If there was a proper name, we'd use it, but lines between endpoints usually just connect the ends with an en dash. Dicklyon (talk) 05:46, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

  Yes, I'd support that suggestion, and it matches the two main websites for the line (except for the capital L sometimes, and the use of "Railway" sometimes). It's a pity the official sites are not consistent. Dbfirs 09:27, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose anything that involves "to", regardless of capitalisation. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:29, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose misuse of either hyphen (as opposed to dash) or caps, regardless of whether "to" or en dash. I did some work on some of the over-capitalization and hyphen abuse at a few articles already: Liverpool to Wigan line and Preston–Liverpool line. It might be good to converge on a consistent scheme for all of these, but lacking that, let's at least respect MOS:CAPS and MOS:DASH. It looks like Dbfirs and Redrose64 would go with the dash, and so would I, and perhaps RGloucester since he thought the hyphen was a dash, and maybe Northernhenge as that's how he says it, so it looks like consensus is possible; a multi-RM might be in order—or just do it. Dicklyon (talk) 18:46, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

  The most important thing is that people looking for the article can guess its name and find it. That can be achieved using redirects for any likely guesses so I have no view on what the article is actually called. Using en- and em- dashes in names illustrates this point well. I can never remember how to type either of those characters but I can type Preston-Liverpool using a hyphen and that redirects to Preston–Liverpool line so I didn't need to guess the dash and I didn't need to remember how to type it. I suppose that someone searching for all the railway lines that are named for the destinations they connect would appreciate them being named consistently though. (Incidentally, the same comments would apply to the order in which the destinations are named. I assume they're named in order of distance from London.) --Northernhenge (talk) 21:14, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

  The typical convention on symmetric pairs is to list them in alphabetical order. If there's a different convention relative to London, that's OK, too. As you note, redirects can make up for the alternative guesses. Dicklyon (talk) 04:18, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

  I did a few more Line downcasings. Lots more to be done. Help appreciated. Dicklyon (talk) 05:40, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

  @Dicklyon: Yes, I think switching from a hyphen to a dash is a no-brainer, if we decide that it should not be moved to "Settle to Carlisle". The current one is just wrong per the manual of style. However, do you have a specific reason for opposing the actual move to "Settle to Carlisle Line"? Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 12:59, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

  Yes, I specifically oppose that title because "Line" should not be capitalized. Dicklyon (talk) 15:29, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

  Dicklyon: You have caused inconsistencies with your moving of line article titles. Please look at (articles in the subcats of) Category:Railway lines in the United Kingdom. They all have a capital "L". Until a consensus has been reached that a lowercase "L" is preferable (which is wrong, because they are proper nouns), and not just your own opinion, you should undo your moves. Rcsprinter¹²³ (yarn) 17:35, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

  I generally prefer to move forward, not backward. Are you saying there are good reasons to capitalize "Line" in some of those that I've changed? Which ones? And I can't really fix all the lines in England at once, so starting with North West England. Dicklyon (talk) 02:41, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

  As a brief note, I figured that it would be taken for granted that I do not support using a hyphen here. The reason I said 'dash' was because I presumed a dash was used, as a dash is the only thing that ought be used per MOS:DASH. I apologise if I appeared ignorant of such things, but my eyes are not that great these days, and so I have trouble distinguishing the two glyphs in small print. RGloucester — ☎ 20:13, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

• Notice – I have made a multi-RM at Talk:Chester_to_Manchester_line#Requested_move_2_November_2016 for the others in this category that use "to", to use en dash instead. Dicklyon (talk) 04:33, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

First regular scheduled service with a steam engine?

A recent edit has added the text "the first regular scheduled service with a steam engine for more than half a century on the British rail network" - what about The Jacobite service between Fort William and Mallaig, that has been running timetabled services (daily or even twice daily) every summer for over thirty years; or GWR steam rail motor no. 93 which worked all services between Liskeard and Looe for a week or so in 2012? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

BBC News are reporting it so there is a reliable source even if it's debatable. --Northernhenge (talk) 22:15, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I've adjusted the sentence to make it more probably true, but I agree that it needs checking, especially the Liskeard and Looe service in 2012. I recall sitting on the end of the tunnel to watch the last scheduled steam train on the line on August 11th 1968, and maybe journalists are thinking of this and not checking the facts properly. There have, of course, been regular special steam services on the line for many years. Dbfirs 23:24, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I watched the report on BBC News at Ten tonight, and they qualified it by saying "... in England", which of course means that even if they are aware of The Jacobite, they're not glossing it over. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 01:30, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I support Yngvadottir's improvements to the article, except that the line is not yet open beyond Appleby. Dbfirs 20:53, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I'd entirely missed in the sources that the line was not completely reopened. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:09, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

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