Talk:Shmuel Bornsztain (second Sochatchover rebbe)

Date of death

According to my sources, he died on 22 Tevet 5686, which corresponds to 8 January 1926. But the source also says he was 70 years old at his passing. 22 Tevet reoccurred on 27 December 1926 (at which time he would have had his 70th birthday), but the latter date corresponds to 5687 on the Hebrew calendar. I am still fact-checking. Yoninah (talk) 15:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Several very different ideas were discussed, but I see no consensus here. Orlady (talk) 02:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

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Shmuel Bornsztain (I) → Shmuel Bornsztain (1856–1926) — Using birth and death dates is a better way to disambigate the two rabbis than using Latin numerals. Hopefully uncontroversial, but you never know. City of Destruction (The Celestial City) 00:18, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• Shmuel Bornsztain (II) → Shmuel Bornsztain (born 1961)

Interesting. There's a two-way DAB at Shmuel Bornsztain, but this Shmuel Bornsztain seems considerably more notable than his great-great-grandson, so arguably this article should be at the undisambiguated name, and the DAB overwritten. Andrewa (talk) 07:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Are either really the primary topic? If not, then a two-way disambiguation page is appropriate. The use of birth/death dates is deprecated. How about Shmuel Bornsztain (Second Rebbe) and Shmuel Bornsztain (Sixth Rebbe)? Not sure whether Rebbe should be capitalised or not. Skinsmoke (talk) 10:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• I don't think there's much difference in notability between the two rabbis, and although the earlier rabbi has a longer article I don't think he is the primary topic. Shmuel Bornsztain (Second Rebbe) and Shmuel Bornsztain (Sixth Rebbe) could work also as an alternative. City of Destruction (The Celestial City) 12:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
  • The guidelines on clergy and on Hebrew names don't deal with disambiguation, so the relevant guideline seems to be Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)#Disambiguating. This reads in part Years of birth and death are not normally used as disambiguators (readers are more likely to be seeking this information than to already know it). But I do note the normally, and this is probably a case where more creative disambiguation is required. In this case either dates or Second Rebbe/Sixth Rebbe work IMO, with a preference for the Rebbe constructions. Happy to defer to the opinions above regarding lack of primary topic, and keep the two-way DAB. Andrewa (talk) 13:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I really like the idea of titling the articles by birth/death dates rather than the way we're doing it. The Roman numerals after the name have always bothered me on Hasidic Judaism articles, since Jews traditionally name their children by the same name as the ancestor, not with "II" or "Jr.".

The (Second Rebbe), (Sixth Rebbe) is going to get confusing on other Hasidic dynasty pages where cousins with the same name split off into their own sub-dynasties.

If this is going to be a problem with other articles too, then we may need to propose a special naming convention. We're wasting our time if we just ignore the conventions; It's then just a matter of time before someone notices that we have, and undoes all our work.

Regarding who is the primary topic, it depends who wants to know. The first Shmuel Bornsztain, known as the Shem MiShmuel, is a historically famous figure and author of a often-quoted sefer. His namesake is only famous in his generation. Yoninah (talk) 22:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

That seems to support my earlier assessment that the first Shmuel Bornsztain is the primary topic, at least so far as Wikipedia article title conventions are concerned. But would Shem MiShmuel be an unambiguous name for him? It may be a possible article title if so. Andrewa (talk) 04:24, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

No. Though Shmuel Bornsztain is widely known as the "Shem Mishmuel", his sefer of the same name is noteworthy in and of itself, so we need separate articles for the rabbi and the sefer. Additionally, Rabbi Shmuel Ehrenfeld wrote a sefer entitled Shem Mishmuel, and there may even be more. Yoninah (talk) 21:00, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Very interesting, but completely unconvincing argument. We can easily disambiguate Shem Mishmuel, and it sounds to me as though perhaps we should. Remember, we are writing for all English speakers who might want information on this man, not just those with Jewish backgrounds. Andrewa (talk) 22:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Counterproposal

Move to some disambiguation of Shem Mishmuel (probably Shem Mishmuel (rabbi), see below).

Rationale: Non-jewish readers are far more likely to know him by the name used in his writings; Jewish readers know both names.

Three article titles to consider:

• Shem Mishmuel (currently the article on the seder)
• Shem Mishmuel (rabbi)
• Shem Mishmuel (seder)
  • Correction: Shem Mishmuel (sefer)

We might not need all of these. If either the man or his seder is the primary topic, then that goes at the simple, undisambiguated name, with a hatnote to the other article. The other topic might alternatively be just a section of this article. If there's no primary topic, then we need a have a two-way disambiguation page at the undisambiguated name. I can think of no scenario when we'd need to use the title Shem Mishmual (disambiguation) unless there's a third topic to disambiguate.

I'm guessing that the seder sefer is the primary topic, and that the man deserves an article of his own, so we simply move this article to Shem Mishmuel (rabbi).

We then still need to decide exactly how to disambiguate the sixth Rebbe.

Comments? Andrewa (talk) 22:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Do you mean "sefer"? Do you think non-Jewish English-speakers know what that is? Yoninah (talk) 20:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, sefer, my typo (now corrected).

I'm quite sure we don't. But it seems the best disambiguator to me, nevertheless. Open to other suggestions. Andrewa (talk) 12:27, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

It could be Shem Mishmuel (Torah work). But I won't quibble; Shem Mishmuel (sefer) is also fine. Yoninah (talk) 13:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.