Talk:Shōrin-ryū

I believe that "Anko Azato" is incorrect.

In Karate-dō: My Way of Life by Gichin Funakoshi, Funakoshi gives Azato's first name as "Yasutsune" (page 3). Later, page 16, he claims that both Itosu and Azato have the same first names, "Yasutsune".

JCrickmer 11:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

It can be a little confusing here. Both Itosu and Azato do have the same first name, Anko. Anko (安恒) is the “on” (Chinese) pronunciation of Yasutsune (Japanese pronunciation of those same Chinese characters). They were often used interchangeably. If you do not know that it makes you think Funakoshi did not really know who he was talking about. ron Southwick 01:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC) \

Linkfarm

The article has way to many external links - I don't know enough about the subject to delete them selectively. Most seem like advertisement. I'll do my best in a couple of days if no one beats me to it.Peter Rehse 00:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

This article clearly suffers from severe linkfarmitis.. Rather than me, who has limited familiarity with Shorin-ryu, going through and deleting ones that look like they're just promotional links to schools as opposed to relevant references about the system itself, can someone who is more familiar go through and take care of it? If no one does in the next few days (I'll keep an eye on my watchlist), I'll do it myself, at least culling the obvious ones. - Erik Harris 19:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed them all with the hope that the important ones will find their way back. Frankly not one of the ones I saw fit the bill.Peter Rehse 01:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Shorin-ryu karate

No one seems to realize that Shorin-ryu is a style of karate. It is another way of referring to Shuri-te since this is where it was said to have developed. The styles from Naha (Naha-te) are called Shorei-ryu. Tomari-te, I believe, was based on Shorin-ryu with influences from Shorei-ryu. This should be mentioned in the article so it is not seen as being entirely different from karate. (Unattributed entry from 202.133.104.38)

The second sentence of the article begins with "Shorin-ryu is widely considered to be one of the two major modern styles of Okinawan Karate" (emphasis added), which pretty clearly specifies that it's a karate system (I'll go ahead and fix the capitalization). -Erik Harris 18:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

you guys crack me up. the very top of the article gives you the clue. (小林流 松林流, 少林流), These are actually three different words in Japanese, not the same word. in English, it like there are three different words to, too and two. all with different meanings. (小林流 松林流 少林流) all have different meanings. look up the origin of the three styles, and why the founders choice to call them 小林流, (松林流, or 少林流. that should give you some insight (maybe)

BTW, even if you ignore the rest of this, the "(小林流 (松林流, 少林流), Shōrin-ryū?)" should be corrected to read, "(小林流, 松林流, and 少林流), Shōrin-ryū?)" (a couple of typos)

The proper okinawan pronuciation, for the three different words are shorinryu, matsubashiryu, and shorinryu. the people with a little japanese language skills (and many mainland japanese) will immediately point out, the the on reading of matsubashiryu is shorinryu. they are correct, except this is an exception to the rule (as there are many in Japanese) and the correct pronuciation is matsubayashiryu. there is no linkage between matusbayashiryu and shorinryu except they are both okinawan and anko itosu taught both founders. the term shorinryu (and of the three (小林流 (松林流 少林流)) was never NEVER used to describe karate prior to Chibana calling his school/style shorinryu to distinguish it from all other styles of karate that were being changed from the original sui-te as taught by matsmura. Sokon Matsumura NEVER called his karate neither 林流, 松林流, nor 少林流.

A little side note, kobayashi was never, and still never used to describe shorinryu in okinawa (except by nagazato's american students). It is common practice when Spelling the word, to use the kun reading for understanding, but not to "mispronounce" the word and call it kobayashi.

Shorinryu is not and never has been a style of karate incorporating the three differnet styles of (小林流 松林流 少林流) into one style, except by non-okinawans.

if you have ever practiced with people from okinawa and the different styles of 小林流 松林流 少林流, you will quickly figure out that these are not branches of the same style, but three different styles. americans, not reading japanese are infinately confused by the three different words wtih the same pronuciation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.12.224.58 (talk) 15:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Deep stances

The article states that, "Okinawan traditionalists often claim that deep, wide stances are a development of Japanese-styled karate." Who makes this claim, and are the people who make this claim notable or authoritative? Deep, wide stances are common in traditional Chinese martial arts (for a variety of reasons, "show" not traditionally being one of them). Given that traditional Okinawan martial arts primarily evolved out of Southern Chinese arts, it doesn't make logical sense to claim that the deep, wide stances are a development of the Japanese karate systems. I've added a note requesting citation on this claim, since it seems a bit "fishy." -Erik Harris 14:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

However, the Shorin Ryu Karate system does employ the use of low deep stances such as the *iron horse stance*. However i do agree that your claim of it being fishy has merit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.183.161.98 (talk • contribs)

I study traditional Chito Ryu at the yudansha level. We see strong similarities between ourselves and other "Okinawan" styles such as Goju Ryu and Isshinryu. One of those similarities is that the stances are indeed less deep and stylized. Instead our stances are meant to allow fluid movement and dynamic turning movements. Even those styles that employ deeper stances for kata will often employ shorter, less deep stances as their "fighting stance." There is a good reason for that. There are, of course, exceptions, with each style having a number of longer and deeper stances for specialized application - the question is what is the norm in that style. B MacDonald —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.86.141.133 (talk) 21:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Goju-Ryu is Naha-te! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jman1000 (talk • contribs)

Citations

I just deleted a recently-added citation consisting only of "(M. Gallardo March 1997)" - this may well be citing a valid source of information, but it doesn't provide enough information for a reader to evaluate it. Who is M. Gallardo? In what publication did he or she say that in March 1997? To the anonymous user who posted this citation - if you have a valid citation, please put it back, with complete information, preferably in <ref>reference</ref> tags. —Erik Harris 12:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

kata.

I have updated the kata list to correctly reflect the katas listed on the official Okinawan web site (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/006/003/index.html) This includes eliminating the kata of matsubayashi-ryu, which according to the offical okinawan site, is a tomari-te not shuri-te style (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/008/001/index.html) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.241.37.140 (talk) 15:53, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Hakusuru kata.

The article's listing of kata does not include the Matsumura white crane kata "hakusuru"(sp)

The kata is the hallmark of the Matsumura Seito branch of Shorin-ryu and has actually been filmed being performed by the late Hohan Soken (aka Hoken Soken). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 214.13.47.111 (talk) 00:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

iha dojo's relationship to?

http://ihadojo.com/Origins/index.htm ihadojo.com

Hi, I'm wondering how this style relates to this style. If you can help me, please add the appropriate information to this article and then comment on my talk page. Thanks Tkjazzer 23:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Iha is a student of Miyahira, who was Chibana's student. Iha practices Shorin-ryu Shido-kan, and is the head of the Beikoku (USA) Shido-kan association. I do not believe Iha should be mentioned in this article, as he is several teachers removed from the origin of Shorin-ryu (Itosu->Chibana->Miyahira->Iha). That is why the Kobayashi Shorin-ryu and Shorin-ryu Shido-kan articles exist. If anything, Chibana and Miyahira should be more prominently mentioned. Miyahira is currently the president of the Shorin-ryu association. --Scott Alter 00:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

incorporate Shorin-ryu_Shido-kan in to main martial arts articles

Please help me incorporate this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorin-ryu_Shido-kan in to the other main martial arts articles. Tkjazzer 23:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

As per my comment above about Iha's relationship (and Miyahira's), I firmly believe this should remain a separate article. It mentions a distinct style of Kobayashi Shorin-ryu. The history mentioned on the ihadojo.com website above is the history of Shorin-ryu Shido-kan (with the exception of mentions to Gusakuma, who was Iha's first teacher and a student of Itosu). Furthermore, other Kobayashi Ryu styles should be added as their own articles, including Shorinkan and Nagazato. I will expand upon the Shido-kan article in the upcoming days to better reflect its history, and possibly add stubs for Shorinkan. --Scott Alter 00:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Hohan Soken

Hohan Soken has been deleted, because he is not a shorin-ryu practitioner according to the Official Okinawa history of Shorin-ryu (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/006/003/index.html). In fact, according to the official Okinawan lineage, he never even practiced under Sokon Matsumura (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/006/003/index.html), let alone the founder of shorin-ryu, Chosin Chibana. Hohan Soken left Okinawa in 1924 long before the name Shorin-ryu was coined by Chibana in 1933 (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/006/003/index.html) Hohan soken's teacher was Peichin Kiyuna (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/003/002/index.html). Lastly, Hohan Soken is not listed as an Intangible Cultural Asset Holder in the field of Okinawan karate in the martial arts with Weaponry with the Okinawan Prefecture (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/014/index.html). Sure the practitioners of shorin-ryu (Shugoro Nagazato and Katsuya Miyahira) holders of the Intangible Cultural Asset should be listed long before him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.241.37.140 (talk) 16:15, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

shuri-te verse shorin-ryu (matsuyabashi-ryu vs Shorin-ryu)

I did a quick cleanup job on this site. Obviously most of the contributors to this article are very confused as to the difference between shuri-te and shorin-ryu (and matsuyabashi-ryu and shorin-ru). IMHO, a long reading of the OFFICIAL Okinawan web site for karate (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/index.html) might tremedouisly help some of the earlier contributors. Shuri-te is the conglomerate of styles descending from Sokon Matsumura (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/001/001/index.html), and then some. Shorin-ryu is the style founded by Chosin Chibana (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/006/003/index.html). Matsubayashi-ryu is the tomari-te style of Shoshin Nagamine (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/008/001/index.html)

In no was are the terms shorin-ryu, matsuyabashi-ryu, shobayashi-ryu and shuri-te synonymous.

If you are ignorant or misinformed, please educate yourself. But please don't pass your misinformation and ignorance on to others.

Obviously, this article needs a lot of additional attention to bring it up to speed to correct for the misinformation presented earlier.

Actually, the more I thing about it, the original article (corrected for the confusion that Matsuyabashi-ryu is tomari-te not shuri-te, would make a good article for shuri-te. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.241.37.140 (talk) 16:45, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

after making the changes, changing anko itosu's picture to chibana A(the founder, and his name, someone changed it back, with no explanation nor discussion. I felt that the above reasons and citations are very strong, and deserve an explanation if you disagree. I have changed it back to Chosin Chibana, along with 6 references. If you disagree, please provide your explanation with at least equally competent reverences

thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.241.37.140 (talk) 16:43, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

ignoring references for the sake of anonymous opinion matsubayashi 松林流 is not shorin-ryu小林流.

''[The author of this article on Shorin Ryu really has their facts wrong. I am a Matsubayashi student and have been for almost two decades. The founder of Matsubayashi Ryu (Shoshin Nagamine) was not only a student of Chosin Chibana, he was the creator of the Fukyugata Katas along with Chojun Miyagi (founder of Goju Ryu). So how could the style this author claims to be the only real "Shorin Ryu" have a series of katas created by Nagamine and Miyagi? Matsubayashi Ryu is certainly Shorin Ryu, as are some of the other styles this author claims to be mistakingly "confused" as such. In addition to the Fukyugata Katas, Matsubayashi Ryu also has the five Pinan, the three Naihanchi, Passai, Kusanku, Chinto and Gojushiho katas. I will not speak about the other styles, as I am not a student of them. Perhaps someone who is can." Italic text

I wrote my reply after a few beers and intended to tone it down before posting. but i changed my mind.

the Arthur of the above included opinion rather than verifiable information

the Arthur of the above failed to provide and verifiable references other than his anonymous self

the Arthur of the above put a discussion in the article rather in the discussion page.

the Arthur of the above failed to read any of the 6 references and failed to address any of them, let alone all of them.

after seeing something corrected in this entry, and corrected again with multiple sources provided for the corrections, and now the mistaken OPINION again added without explanation of addressing any of the references, i decided to leave the sarcasm in.

the Arthur provides another statement with no references other than the anonymous author own anonymous opinion. CLEARLY OPINION and therefore removed from the text and moved to the discussion page where it belongs.

I understand that some contributors to wikipedia are not up on idea that we want facts, not opinion or preferences. Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's four core content policies. somewhat amazing that the above author ignores 6 references that state the opposite of what his opinion is, but is unable to give any references to his statements (other than himself who remains anonymous). Further the discussion above on the three kanji's is ignored. Just because the author of the above words was student that has been taught wrong for over 2 decades does not mean that the rest of the world should share the illusion. "Neutral point of view" is one of Wikipedia's three core content policies

fURTHER HE HAS HIS FACTS WRONG, which is easily verified. Shosin Nagamine was NEVER a student of chosin chibana, but a student of Yasukichi Aragaki in 1926 , in 1933 a pupil of Chotoku Kyan, and in 1938, a pupil of Choki Motobu. three reference are: http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/014/009/index.html, mark bishop Okinawan karate page 88 (second edition) and shoshin nagamine “the essence of Okinawan karate-do” page 32. (three references that hopefully will not be ignored by the anonymous expert author) maybe if he would have read some of the reference on this entry before he wrote he wouldn't have made such as easily verifiable mistake about the style has been a student of for over twenty years lol

However, since he is an “expert”who doesn't need to read any of these references, Including the reference written by the Okinawan masters on karate (he must be smarter than them) Obviously he is ignorant of the difference between shorin-ryu and shuri-te (often mistaken as shorin-ryu) the reality is that Shorinryu is not and never has been a style of karate incorporating the three different styles of (小林流 松林流 少林流) into one style, except by non-okinawans. Note that these are three different words in japanese (okinawan) not three spellings for the same word. the above Arthur fails to understand this and chooses to spread him ignorance rather than foster understanding. LOOK AT THE KANJI, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME!!!!!

In regards to the katas having the same name this logic does not follow, and is opinion anyway. Doesn't shotokan and wado-ryu have some of the same katas, even if by a new name. then so does shorinji-ryu, but it is not the same style. Isshin-ryu has some of the same katas, but it is not the same nor the same style. the list goes on and on. having variation of the same kata mean nothing.

If you watch a matsubayashi student practice the pinans verses a shorin-ryu student practice the pinans, the fundamental moves are significantly different. the intent is clearly different. the bunkais are not interchangeable. NOT THE SAME STYLE. For those of us who are fortunate to see seniors for both styles perform on the same day, as well as numerous students, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME (there is an anonymous opinion to match yours. LOL) Easily verified by watching video if you have the good fortune to own videos of them.

i could go on and on, but whats the point.

Wikipedia is not meant to foster and encourage ignorance and misinformation, rather it is meant to educate. Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's four core content policies. neutrality is also one of its core content policies

if you disagree with the above, Please provide reliable references, rather than you anonymous opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.232.173.26 (talk) 21:05, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Matsubayashi ryu is Shorin ryu but not this Shorin ryu

Matsubayashi ryu is a style of Shorin ryu 昭林流 but not a branch of this Shorin ryu 小林流 Matsubayashi ryu and this Shorin ryu are both descended from the original Shorin ryu 昭林流 referred to in Anko Itosu's letter about tode (karate).Therefore Matsubayashi ryu should not be included as a branch of this Shorin ryu 小林流 . This is why I have removed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deshi222 (talk • contribs) 21:42, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

The okinawan a do not consider matsuyabashi shorin-ryu. See http://okkb.org/karateandkobudo/stylesandschools/tomarite-kei And http://okkb.org/karateandkobudo/stylesandschools/shurite-kei — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.111.164.192 (talk) 19:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Yet, it continues to remain on Wikipedia, fostering ignorance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.111.164.192 (talk) 19:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Who Da Masta?!!

Gang

I have "no dog in this fight."

Joe Hess

I removed a Joe Hess since the only indication of his grade as "(Black Belt)" is not really significant. I spent the last hour searching and can only find a Joe Hess as regurgitations of this very article OTHER than this biography for someone else which lists him as:

In 2000 Shihan John’s rank of 7th Dan was recognized by the Former Heavyweight Champion of the world and legendary Soke Joe Hess a 10th Dan and founder of the Joe Hess System of Self Defense and a original top ranking student of the Goju-Ryu Patriarch Peter Urban.

Goju-Ryu is not Shōrin-Ryū. Further searching for this "Joe Hess System" yields a biography page with lots of information but no rank in Shōrin-Ryū. I also cannot find a webpage for this System of Self Defense.

So . . . I leave it to others to decide whether or not to include him as a Shōrin-Ryū practitioner. Perhaps it is someone else; please provide the evidence below and edit accordingly.

Who's Dese Guys?

I wonder about including a number of other masters the most of whom are declared "Soke" which means they have basically founded their own styles and hold grade in that. The legitimacy of such is a discussion/debate/flamewar for some other place. I would suggest editing to emphasize the grade each holds from a Shōrin-Ryū organization rather than their own. Perhaps specify that. This is not meant to demean/diminish/disrespect/bend/fold/spindle/and/or mutilate any of them. I do wonder if they have the importance to be listed in a Wiki page. If they do, should they not have their own linked Wiki pages? TheDoctorX (talk) 20:30, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Having read no objections, I will remove the few "soke" since, if such title should be taken seriously, is for the person's own style for which there should be a WikiPage if it meets the criteria.

Objections? Please make them. Please cite reasons for notability. TheDoctorX (talk) 06:54, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

WikiProject Karate Proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Wikipedia:WikiProject Karate

Dear editors, I am proposing a new WikiProject Karate to bring together editors with knowledge of this martial art specifically, especially due to Karate becoming an Olympic sport I think it is time to focus energy on the roughly 3500 main space articles associated with Karate. Full description of the rationale and goals can be found at the link above, please comment, discuss (and join if you support this project!) All the best, Mountain^{cirque · Join WikiProject Karate?} 09:07, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Shōrin-ryū: (少林流) or 小林流

English article uses 少林流, but it links to Japanese version of the article where 小林流 is used and in Japanese Wiki there is no article about 少林流. So what the heck? alexkachanov (talk) 11:22, 4 December 2021 (UTC)