Talk:Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk

The S-67 Fatal Accident

reference 'citation required'

This event is a matter of public record. I was an eyewitness to the accident at the Farnborough Air Show in 1974. At that time I was regional director (W.Europe) for the Cessna Commercial Jet Division. On the day of the accident, there were severe gusting and turbulent wind conditions. During practice flying in the morning, the S-67 was making high performance manoeuvers at an altitude up to about 1500 to 2000 feet. All aircraft preparing for the show were affected by the wind conditions. During the afternoon show, the S-67 was making impressive manoeuvers and holding up very well. the aircraft made a low-level pass from left to right (downwind) followed by a steep-climb and a high-speed descent over the chalets and was making a curving recovery across the main runway and away from the chalets. during this manoeuver, and very probably due the the severe winds, the tailcone struck the ground and the aircraft, instantaneously, became a fireball. the emergency services were on the spot very quickly and 2 very large, 3-axle/6 wheel foam generator vehicles arrived at high speed and put the fire out. the sound of their v-12 2-cycle diesels was impressive. very regrettably, it was too late for the crew. i later was told that 1 had died instantly and the other was very badly burnt and died 2 or 3 days later in hospital. bruce (talk) 21:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Bruce, I've had to remove your account from the main article space. In order to have all content be verifiable, all content has to be from reliable, published sources. First-hand accounts are considered Original research (OR) by Wikipedia, and are not permitted. THat doesn't mean your first-hand knowledge is usless here. For example, if the aritcles had stated that no one had died, you could have tagged it for a source, or removed it outright as being in error. I hope you won't won't let that discourage you from contributing to or editng WP, as you seem very knowledgeable about the subject of aircraft. Often some strange errors can crop up on here, sometimes from bad sources, copywriting errors, or simply missed vandalism, and personal knowledge can help to spot those quickly. Thanks for your efforts, and for the accont above. SOunds like a truly harrowing thing to have seen. - BillCJ (talk) 22:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

ok, understood. however, i feel that my position at the time (senior VP, Cessna commercial jet) and my reports' syntax and tone would have been acceptable (for example) in a court as a witness statement.

i have attached the references of the british Civil Aviation Authority (CAA)(equivalent to the FAA and NTSB) accident report. the only disagreement that i have with it is their assessment of the wind component which, in my view, was the main cause of the accident. i recall the wind a being around 5 to 12 knots, as they say, from about northwest. however it was very frequently gusting well above 30 knots or more. when the aircraft was making its final manoeuver, the windspeed was high. just when when the aircraft was making its low-level recovery the wind, instantaneously, died away to nothing and i believe that the pilot 'ran out of collective'. as this happened, the helicopter lost an appreciable amount of lift across its main rotor, its trajectory decayed at very low altitude and the tail cone struck the ground, resulting in the loss of the aircraft.

the details of the UK Civil Aviation Authority, Air Accident Report and fulltext pdf file are available for download Publications > Formal reports > 1/1976 N671SA Site address: WWW.AAIB.DFT.GOV.UK then: searchbox (top right of page) 11 March 2008 Bulletins Formal reports Formal Report Archive Special bulletins Progress Reports Foreign Reports Report No: 1/1976. Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk, N671SA. Report on the accident at Farnborough, Hampshire, September 1974 Report name: 1/1976 Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk, N671SA Registration: N671SA Type: Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk Location: Farnborough, Hampshire Date of occurrence: 01 September 1974 Category: Public transport - Helicopters Download report: 1-1976 N671SA.pdf (2,635.71 kb)

Report Appendices To view appendices, click on link below: 1/1976 Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk, N671SA Appendices (748.33 kb Publications > Formal reports > 1/1976 N671SA 11 March 2008 Bulletins Formal reports Formal Report Archive Special bulletins Progress Reports Foreign Reports Report No: 1/1976. Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk, N671SA. Report on the accident at Farnborough, Hampshire, September 1974 Report name: 1/1976 Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk, N671SA Registration: N671SA Type: Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk Location: Farnborough, Hampshire Date of occurrence: 01 September 1974 Category: Public transport - Helicopters Download report: 1-1976 N671SA.pdf (2,635.71 kb)

Report Appendices To view appendices, click on link below: 1/1976 Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk, N671SA Appendices (748.33 kb

best wishes, bruce 86.194.7.187 (talk) 16:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC) 86.194.7.187 (talk) 16:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The web site you list ukcaa.org is not working for me. The UK CAA's official site looks to be caa.co.uk Internet searches aren't showing any reports using number N671SA. -Fnlayson (talk) 17:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

ok: try WWW.AAIB.DFT.GOV.UK then their searchbox for: 1/1976 Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk, N671SA 86.194.7.187 (talk) 18:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

• Great, thanks. Found the link here: 1/1976 Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk, N671SA and the report and appendix files are linked there. This report should be a fine reference. -Fnlayson (talk) 19:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

bruce (talk) 08:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Sikorsky S-66 mention

Since there's not a S-66 article, what about adding a bit about it here as background, like 2-3 sentences. I can't see a separate S-66 article being anything more than a stub. -Fnlayson (talk) 00:59, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Concur. - BillCJ (talk) 01:45, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Added about all I intended to. The AAFSS program background should be of benefit. Might could add a bit more on the S-66 from the AH-56 book. -Fnlayson (talk) 06:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The rest of the article needs work too.. -Fnlayson (talk) 19:56, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Blackhawk vs Black Hawk

I have an issue with the way it's written. I think there needs to be a reference or more detail. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 00:32, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Please reword it some more or something. That was my first cut at rewriting and missed the 1 word vs. 2 word part. It mentioned trademark stuff before and had been unsourced for over a year. -Fnlayson (talk) 13:55, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I am removing this claim "Sikorsky Aircraft lifted the trademark on the name "Blackhawk" for UH-60." from the Legacy section. It has been hidden and had a Cite tag with an August 2007 date. If someone can find a reference for that, please readd. -Fnlayson (talk) 00:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know Sikorsky never released the 'Blackhawk' name so the Army could use it, consequently the 'Black Hawk' spelling difference. Leoni's book page 69 doesn't directly address it. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 12:36, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Legacy text

I removed this

The aft fuselage and vertical tail design of the S-67 was used as a basis for the Sikorsky S-72 Rotor Systems Research Aircraft (RSRA), which later became the test bed for the X-Wing Stopped Rotor Program.{{Citation needed|date=August 2007}}

I can't find a reference for it. Also, The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Helicopters book by Apostolo says the S-72 had a new fuselage and had "airplane-type tail swept tail surfaces". That indicates little connection, although there may be some. -Fnlayson (talk) 04:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The reference that I know of is a forum discussion on pprune.org which included Nick Lappos, who served as a test pilot for Sikorsky for many years and managed the test flight program for the Comanche (at the end), and the S-92. Anyways, Nick made a comment a couple years ago in a discussion about the Blackhawk in regards to the reconfiguration of the S-67 to a fan-in-fin in 1974, prior to the accident at Farnborough.[1] The discussion, however, was in reference to the S-76, not the S-72. --Born2flie (talk) 06:01, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Evaluation report

Take a look at the ext link I added from DTIC. You will likely find everything you ever wanted to know about the Blackhawk. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 13:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Good find. Thanks! -Fnlayson (talk) 18:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

DTIC.mil also has similar reports on the AH-56, Bell 309, YAH-63, and YAH-64, but not all include electronic copies for downloading. -Fnlayson (talk) 22:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I know. I'll post more whenever I find them. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 20:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

When I was looking for the report on worldcat.org, I found another report for the high-altitude testing of the S-67 conducted in July. I didn't check DTIC to see if that one was available. I found the basic report rather condemning as-is, though. --Born2flie (talk) 03:21, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Genesis of S-67 and tie to AAFSS

According to Leoni (and he makes a special distinction), the S-67 was not actually part of the AAFSS program (because Sikorsky lost), but only loosely tied by the technology they were developing (per S-61 and S-66). In fact it was more of an answer to a failed Cheyenne, but AAFSS was basically dead anyway (i.e., since Army didn't buy the S-67). The failure of the Cheyenne wasn't the only issue, because politics over mission (with the Air Force, think A-10) was the primary reason for the death of the AAFSS program. Consequently the Army was moving on (AAH) and cutting its losses when Sikorsky introduced the S-67. It could probably be viewed as the right helicopter at the wrong time. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 16:51, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Well put. Sikorsky bid a design for AAH that was UH-60-based instead of a S-67 type design. -Fnlayson (talk) 20:17, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

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