Talk:Slavic Native Faith and politics

Requested move 11 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – MaterialWorks 17:45, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

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Slavic Native Faith's identity and political philosophy → Slavic Native Faith and Politics – The current name is very clunky and hard to link or search for. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 02:01, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose: The article also treats the identity ideas of Rodnovery which are tightly connected to its political aspects. Æo (talk) 09:30, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

  And capitalized "Politics" in this is an error per WP:NCCAPS. It is not part of a proper name like "Slavic Native Faith" allegedly is.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 18 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. There is rough consensus that the proposed title is an improvement as being more concise and easier to understand. The question of whether to use "Rodnovery" or "Slavic Native Faith" in the article title was raised, but it would be better to decide that question at the main Slavic Native Faith article talk page. (non-admin closure) Rreagan007 (talk) 02:17, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

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Slavic Native Faith's identity and political philosophy → Slavic Native Faith and politics – There was not a consensus against the move. Only one person responded against it. I do not know how to relist so posting again. Current title is too clunky Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 19:18, 18 September 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Edward-Woodrow • talk 23:56, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

@SMcCandish sorry about the new move proposal, but yes capitalization is proper. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 23:15, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose: This is not Simple English Wikipedia. As I wrote in the previous request for title change, the article treats both identity philosophy (note that "identity" here, and in the current title, is used as an adjective, not as a noun) and political philosophy in the doctrines of Rodnovery. An alternative solution might be to change the title to "Rodnover identity and political philosophy", using the now well established adjective for "Rodnovery". Æo (talk) 12:04, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

  I am not that knowledgeable about the terms Rodnovery vs Slavic Native Faith. It might be worth doing a collective move proposal on all articles containing "Slavic Native Faith" in their titles. My perception was that Rodnovery only referred to Eastern Slavic traditions and excluded western and southern slavic similar to how Asatru only contains northern germanic while heathenry is all Germanic.

  Nonetheless I am not proposing that we simplify the article, but rather that for ease of discovery and Search Engine optimization, having complicated titles which one can easily type incorrectly is not preferable. I believe there are likely many articles that could have had this article linked in them but were not linked because the person was unable to find this article when searching for an article to link. Likewise these are not common names for the topics at hand Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 18:10, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

  "Rodnovery" is the English name of the movement (while its adjective and noun-adjective is "Rodnover[s]"), not Russian or East Slavic, although it resembles either the Russian nominative plural case of the noun rodnover (роднове́р), i.e. rodnovéry (роднове́ры), or the prepositional case of rodnovérije (роднове́рие), i.e. rodnovérii (роднове́рии), and possibly similar declension cases of the equivalent terms in other Slavic languages. And it is used not only for the Eastern Slavic variants of the movement, but for the movement as a whole, also including its Western and Southern Slavic variants. See the following examples of the comprehensive use of the term: (1) uses it to refer to the movement in Russia; (2, 3) in Slavic countries in general; (4) in Poland.

  1) Zuev, Denis (2013). "The Russian March: Investigating the Symbolic Dimension of Political Performance in Modern Russia". Europe-Asia Studies, Volume 65. Quote: "...discourse in the blogosphere (Etling et al. 2010) and within particular web communities, such as Rodnovery (Aitamurto 2007). At the same time, the structure...".

  2) Radulović, Nemanja (2021). "The New Life of 'The Book of Veles'. Transformations of Mystification into Myth". In Disenchantment, Re-Enchantment and Folklore Genres, Belgrade: Institute for Literature and Arts. Quote: "The Book has had the key role in the creation of Rodnovery... a new form of reception followed the appearance of Rodnovery in Serbia early in the 21st century. According to the available information, The Book of Veles plays no significant role in the Rodnovery of Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, and Croatia (Polish translation appeared as late as 2013/2014)... About Ukrainian Rodnovery...".

  3) Maiello, Giuseppe (2018). "On the Agony of Czech Slavic Paganism and the Representation of One's Own Funeral among Contemporary Czech Pagans". The Pomegranate, Volume 20, Issue 2. Quote: "Today the Slavic contemporary Paganism or Rodnovery is also present in the Balkans, but fifteen years ago Slavic identity there was associated...".

  4) Grochowski, Piotr (2020). "The feasts of 'Stado' and 'Kupala Night' in the rituals of the Polish Rodnovers. A revival of ethnographic sources". Ethnolinguistics, Volume 32. Quote: "It is argued in this study that contemporary Rodnovers (practitioners of Slavic Native Faith, or Rodnovery) revive ethnographic and historical sources...".

  Regarding I am not proposing that we simplify the article, but rather that for ease of discovery and Search Engine optimization, having complicated titles which one can easily type incorrectly is not preferable, this is what WP:RDR are meant for. Regarding an overall switch from "Slavic Native Faith" to "Rodnovery/Rodnover", I think it is not the case yet. I proposed it for ancillary articles like this one about aspects of Rodnovery just for the sake of simplification of titles, which seemed to be the main driver behind your move requests.--Æo (talk) 09:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  All of this seems to just be political ideology. I don't see much of identity that is distinct from political ideology Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 15:45, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  The "origins of the Slavs" section primarily deals with Slavic ethno-historical identity. Æo (talk) 06:19, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

  Insofar as this is linked to nationalism I consider it to be political ideology Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 06:54, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

  @ModernDayTrilobite thoughts on this move discussion too? Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 16:48, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

  The proposal seems sensible to me - certainly it's an improvement along WP:CONCISE. Something along the lines of "Slavic Native Faith political philosophy" might be even better, though; this article seems to mainly discuss the political views of members of the Slavic Native Faith, whereas an article title in the "Foo and politics" format makes me think more of how the topic intersects with the practice of politics. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 19:02, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

  Agree. The format "X and whatever" is not suited for this type of article, as it implies a separation between the two topics treated in it, while this article discusses specifically the Rodnover political views. Therefore, while I oppose a move to "Slavic Native Faith and politics", I would support a move to "Slavic Native Faith's political philosophy" or "Rodnover political philosophy". Æo (talk) 12:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom. The current title is hard to understand. The proposed title may not be the best title imaginable, but it's better than the current one, so I support this move. HappyWith (talk) 20:36, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Support per nominator, it's a rather descriptive title and the proposed title is shorter while covering the essential scope of the article. Killuminator (talk) 12:10, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.