Talk:Société nationale de musique

Motto

"The motto was "Ars gallica"."

What's that mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.147.176.66 (talk) 21:16, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Capitalisation

I realise that French capitalisation of titles is deliberately designed to nonplus the innocent Anglophone, but as far as I can see the only authentic capitalisation here is Société nationale de musique. Would anyone object to my moving this article to give it that title? Tim riley talk 22:46, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I would support such a move. But actually I would have thought you could indulge yourself in being WP:BOLD anyway, as there will be a redirect for Capitalist searchers. --Smerus (talk) 17:07, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Support: Since the name for the article is rendered in the original French, then capitalization rules should be applied accordingly. However, I wonder if a similar phenomenon is occurring in French as is currently underway in Spanish, wherein English-style orthography is being rapidly adopted by younger generations in the last decade or so. (I seem to recall seeing that one of the recent El País style guides began to permit this kind of capitalization.) —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 18:00, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you both: most reassuring, and I'll give it a day or two and then do the deed. What you say, CurryTime, is interesting, representing as it does the exact opposite for Spanish usage of what Hucbald.SaintAmand told us here about the trends in French capitalisation. It's clearly all a wicked Continental plot. – Tim riley talk 21:58, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Just to pile on for the fun of it, support, VIAF files are great for this sort of this: [1], it seems like most places do indeed use complete lowercase, and its a nice mix of French databases, the Library of Congress and Swiss library. It is somewhat ironic that our very own Wikidata is among the minority that uses titlecase, but they're not exactly known for their accuracy... but then again, are they known for anything? Aza24 (talk) 22:00, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support. FWIW, the relevant bits of frwiki seem to be fr:Usage des majuscules en français lorsque le spécifique est un adjectif (which corresponds to MOS:CAPS) and fr:Usage des majuscules en français#Attribution de la majuscule en fonction de la nature du mot. Digested, the principle seems to be "capitalise as little as you can get away with - the principal noun only, if there is one (unless there's an embedded proper name), and never capitalise adjectives" - and frwiki editors cheerfully ignore it for titles of creative works, capitalising an extra noun or two just for fun (fr:Un chien andalou but fr:La Vie en rose).

Those French pages are each longer (one much longer) than MOS:CAPS, which suggests that anal-retentive humourless sadistic typesetters are not unique to the anglophone world. (As far as I know, German is the only language with simple straightforward rules. WP:TITLECASE is set in stone, but often produces ugly-looking results and is sometimes impossible to apply. Is a little-known song called "Reflections in a Flat" or "Reflections in A flat"? It's both, of course, and the album preserves the pun by printing the title in all-caps. Our rules mean that we have to choose one version or the other in the article to which those redirects point - which is WP:OR...) Narky Blert (talk) 08:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support. I had answered there before seing the above. I think that the reasons that I gave there are clear enough. They correspond to and confirm those given in the links to the frwiki quoted above by Narky Blert — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 08:59, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Let me add that fr:La Vie en rose quoted above is not merely for the fun of it, but applies the rule that, in titles of works beginning with a definite article, the following word should also be capitalized. fr:Un chien andalou begins with an undefinite article. I had discussed this particular usage here. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 09:09, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I feel sure there must be a logical reason for that... Narky Blert (talk) 09:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Ah - should we then go in English WP for La Bohème (Puccini and Leoncavallo versions) rather than La bohème as we have at present?--Smerus (talk) 14:59, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Probably. From fr:La Bohème (the Puccini) - "La Bohème (titre original orthotypographié La bohème en italien)". I'm going to bang my head repeatedly against my keyboard, and invoke WP:COMMONNAME. This definitely needs a look, and most likely a discussion. Without doing any research at all, I suspect that the usual anglophone title has a capital "B".

For a related nightmare, see Talk:Bohemian#Requested move 24 April 2021. Mimi wasn't a Bohemian, she was a bohemian - from the French bohème, Romani. At least TITLECASE has no problems with The Bohemian Girl, even if it gives the wrong impression. Narky Blert (talk) 16:42, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Confession: when we did La Bohème with HGO, we used La bohème....which I based on the usage in English WP.....--Smerus (talk) 17:15, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

See also La traviata, and probably others. Narky Blert (talk) 18:08, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Well La traviata is pure Italian, and therefore lower case is kosher. Or at least in accordance with the edicts of the Vatican. We did it in England and Italy with lower case and escaped prosecution. The interseting (?) question arises, in titling the opera La B/bohème did Puccini intend us to think of it as a French phrase, or an Italian one. Maybe the first, as otherwise he could have called it La boema.....which might be an argument for 'B'......--Smerus (talk) 19:00, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The equivalent French and Italian articles to Bohemianism are fr:Bohème and it:Bohème; so that would explain Puccini's and his librettists' choice - the title is Italian. (There was nothing Czech about Mimi...) Narky Blert (talk) 13:22, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

I've moved the page as agreed, and expanded it while I was at it. As to capitalising Puccini's opera, Grove has La bohème; Kobbé has La Bohème. "How happy could I be with either, Were t'other dear charmer away." Tim riley talk 13:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

I note that the Met goes for 'B', whilst Royal Opera House goes for 'b'. so this is a transatlantic battle, as well as an internal EU affray.--Smerus (talk) 19:00, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

There are some games you can't win, and French capitalisation is one of them. Haven't I read somewhere that an estimated 87.5% of the pro-Brexit vote in 2016 was over this very issue? Well, no, actually, but nevertheless... – Tim riley talk 19:58, 14 May 2021 (UTC)