Talk:Somali Civil War

US Funding/Supporting United Somali Congress

Is there any evidence of the United States funding or supporting the USC? I bring this up because I really think we should look into this, especially considering the Cold War was technically still going on, and the US had a staunch anti-communist and anti-soviet policy until the end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.4.228.5 (talk) 00:39, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Somalia was at war with pro-soviet Ethiopia, so probably no. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 05:46, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Start date

As it is right now, the start date in the infobox looks extremely confusing, and it cannot stand. Seriously, "Disputed-present", what the hell does that even mean? The asterisk note doesn't really change how jarring the start date is. I propose that some number or year be placed but the disputed asterisk remain. It can be 1991, or 1986, or 1988, or the 1980s, or whichever has the most sources supporting it. Just so that the absurd dating is removed. Perhaps something like: 1991(Disputed) - present.* 2601:85:C102:1220:640F:35E1:C872:594A (talk) 00:30, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't see what's absurd about noting that the start date is disputed. There's no clear consensus amongst sources about what the start date is, so it's difficult to know which one we'd pick if we were to highlight one. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:48, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Same poster, different IP. It's jarring and reads weird: "Start date disputed-present." When is disputed? I never said I was against noting that it was disputed, actually I want it to be noted. Hence, the above example I gave, 1991(Disputed) - present*. So we are in agreement that the start date needs to be shown that it is disputed. But some year needs to be put, and there are precedents on Wikipedia. See Second Sino-Japanese War or Vietnam War, where there are different ways to show multiple dates (in the former, it is beneath the main date, in the latter an explanation is given in a note). As to choosing which year to put for this particular article, it would make sense to pick the date which has the most RS supporting it. And that would be 1991. In addition, in the explanation given by the note in the infobox, 1991 is given by the majority sources present, so it would make sense to put 1991 as the main starting date. In the note, James Fearon gives various starting dates but ultimately rests on 1991. Of course, there is still a dispute, but the note takes care of that. So "1991-present[note]" would seem like the most reasonable course of action.

Thank you for taking the time to discuss this. Didn't mean to sound combative in my original post. 2601:85:C102:1220:D4AD:2550:813D:533D (talk) 01:51, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your further thoughts. My concern was that you seemed to be suggesting picking a date for the sake of having one, and I wasn't sure how we'd assess what the majority of sources state given the large number of sources out there. However, reminding myself of some of them, I see that there does seem to be somewhat of a consensus on 1991 (with notable exceptions), rather than there being complete disagreement. I'm still a little reluctant though, and would prefer wider input (pinging Charles Essie and Buckshot06 as obvious candidates, from the discussion above). On Fearon, while he does settle on 1991, he states that that's for analytical purposes and I wouldn't want to read too much into such a decision. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:29, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

There was a good compromise maintained for a long period, that acknowledged 1991 was incorrect, except as the end of the first phase, Barre's downfall, with a long footnote. Suggest we go back to that. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:42, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

That's what we have at present, isn't it? Cordless Larry (talk) 10:09, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I think we had some dates in there for a while, something like c1981-1991 (disputed) - present. Buckshot06 (talk) 13:03, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I think the answer is very simple. The Somali Rebellion was the first phase of the war and that began on 10 March 1978. That's the start date. Charles Essie (talk) 18:02, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Same poster, different IP. Thanks for the replies guys. While I think 1991 is supported by most of the sources given (especially considering the Central Bank of Somalia and the UN, which should take precedence in my humble opinion), I would also support what Buckshot06 gave above: "c1981-1991 (disputed) - present." What matters is that at least a year or range of years, with a disputed note, is put for the start date, just to avoid the awkward wording of "Start date disputed-present." I believe you guys have more knowledge on this particular subject, so I'll defer to you as to which specific year or range of years to choose. Cheers. 2601:85:C102:1220:9DF3:1D7:2E92:65F (talk) 23:27, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

We could split hairs here for months on when the Somali rebellion became a civil war, but I'm more than happy to go with "1978-1991 (disputed) - present" if there is a clear and authoritative reference for 10 March 1978. Buckshot06 (talk) 13:10, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Personally I couldn't find any source with 1978 as the start date for the Civil War. I still think "1991 (disputed) - present" would have the most support from the sources. But I'm just an IP, and you guys probably have more knowledge of this subject than I, so I defer to you. 2601:85:C102:1220:2002:F3C3:A078:B0F4 (talk) 03:53, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Can I make a change yet or no? 2601:85:C102:1220:A054:120E:7921:9C4E (talk) 18:36, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Maybe it shouldn't have a start date at all and just say disputed. Charles Essie (talk) 19:58, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Same OP. Aye, but then what information would the reader be getting from the nebulous start date of "disputed?" It would be akin to just putting "Start date - end date*[footnote]." But the matter is resolved now, no worries. 2601:85:C100:46C0:C51A:2566:AF10:9013 (talk) 04:23, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 5 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page not moved Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 12:42, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

---

Somali Civil War → Somali civil war – Doesn't need capitalization per WP:NCCPT - Tbf69 🛈 🗩 12:23, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Isn't it a proper noun? We appear to use capitals for other wars, such as World War II (which I don't think I've ever seen rendered in lower case, anywhere), Cambodian Civil War, Bosnian War, etc. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:05, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

See Syrian civil war, Myanmar civil war (2021–present), Afghanistan conflict, Iraqi conflict (2003–present), Mexican drug war for some recent examples that the "war" isn't capitalized. - Tbf69 🛈 🗩 13:28, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Interesting. I think perhaps the "conflict" ones are different, since conflict is less specific than war, but the others show that we have some inconsistency between articles. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:37, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

How do we ensure WP:CONSISTENT? - Tbf69 🛈 🗩 13:38, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Like all wars with a recognised name, the title is a proper noun, not a description, so NCCPT doesn't apply. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:11, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per HJ Mitchell; the title is a proper noun, so is explicitly exempt from WP:NCCPT. Harrias ^{(he/him) • talk} 13:34, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Read Proper noun. "civil war" can't be a proper noun. - Tbf69 🛈 🗩 13:36, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Of course it can, that's a ludicrous statement. A proper noun is something's name. The general term "civil war" is not a proper noun, just as "war" isn't, but when it becomes part of a name it is a proper noun. English Civil War, Sierra Leone Civil War, American Civil War, Irish Civil War are just a few examples. Those are all the recognised proper names of conflicts, just as this is. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:54, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

  Oppose moving per this rationale (and thus TITLECON) BhamBoi (talk) 23:43, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: Per above Thehistorianisaac (talk) 13:02, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Draft:Somali Civil War (1991–1995)

I've been working on a draft for the period of the Somali Civil War between Barre's fall and the withdrawal of UNOSOM. I may change the scope to just between Barre's fall and the beginning of UNITAF, or expand it from Barre's fall to the creation of the TFG, idk. If anyone could help with this, though, that'd be appreciated. Posting this to WP:SOMALIA's talkpage to gather more participation - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 17:53, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Jamame under government control?

If that is so, why are there literally no news reports covering this development? Or in that case why the timeline doesn't mention that it has been recaptured? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gorgedweller (talk • contribs) 07:54, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

People keep changing the map to an unsourcred one where Al-Shabaab controls all of the south.

There are egregious claims that Al-Shabaab is still in places like Diinsoor which they were expelled by Amisom 9 years ago and current disputes are handled by the South-West State of Somalia, so the area connecting Diinsoor and Baidoa should be marked red.

The road between between Baidoa and Mogadishu, notabally including towns like Buur Hakaba, should be marked as red, albeit with Al-Shabaab presence in rural areas

Along the Somali-Kenyan border, the area arounf Geriley should be marked as under government allied control, and since the entire border region is under vague control it should be striped.

Beyond that, the Northern areas of Somalia. Namely Khatumo state should only be marked as controlling Talex, Laascaanood, and Buudhoodle. With the Northern and Western parts of the claimed territory under Puntland and Somaliland control respectivily. Emx0264 (talk) 08:03, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Map conflicts

A discussion on the the several maps added in the previous days and their sources was started on Wikimedia Commons Wowzers122 (talk) 21:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The Map

The Map is False al Shabab doesn’t control that much land in the country Munsaar55 (talk) 03:43, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

What are your thoughts on the new map that is currently up? Zabezt (talk) 13:57, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Zabezt, Guardafuuii, and Ecrusized: please work out the map dispute here. If you cannot reach consensus, call for outside voices via some form of higher dispute resolution. The edit war needs to stop. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Trust me, I'm trying! Ecrusized simply doesn't want to discuss with me because it'll "waste their time" or "they'll repeat the same thing everyday" Zabezt (talk) 11:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

The one you posted the current one is accurate I don’t know what the other guy is doing trying to change it. 2A02:C7C:F89D:1B00:355D:D1B8:F72A:1C3F (talk) 11:18, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Something about being "not specific enough?" no idea.

But there is an RfC in this talk page that is up, Id like to see which you'd prefer, and it'd settle which map should be used once and for all. Zabezt (talk) 12:12, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 August 2024

The picture of the civil war is incorrect Al Shabab doesn’t control that much land. Munsaar55 (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Isochrone (talk) 13:12, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Is the current conflict still worthy of being called a “Civil War?”

The current conflict seems to look like more of an insurgency than a civil war, and I have seen it been called an insurgency more than a civil war in recent years. And in articles about the conflict, I rarely see the phrase "civil war" nowadays, unless it's something like "The civil war has been going on for over 30 years" etc, And if the Civil war did end, what year did it happen? Zabezt (talk) 01:15, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Zabezt I see your point, but insurgency and civil war aren't mutually exclusive terms. The ongoing conflict with Al-Shabaab is still a civil war since Al-Shabaab is predominantly Somali and maintains substantial local support in some regions, with the goal of overthrowing the Somali government. Additionally, other conflicts like the Las Anod war, where SSC forces have reclaimed large areas from Somaliland recently, are very clearly an ongoing civil war. Although today’s inter-Somali conflicts are far less serious than the civil violence of the 1990s, the broader civil war dynamic hasn't really ended. Whoopsawa (talk) 03:13, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I understand, thanks! Zabezt (talk) 11:16, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

RfC about the map

Which map should be used? (Listed below) (the main issue is the map's sources) Zabezt (talk) 15:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@Sifeeye

@Hawkers994

@AVeryBigHat

@Abzeronow

@Freetrashbox

@Billboardbillal

@Replayerr

@Munsaar55

@Wowzers122 Zabezt (talk) 18:14, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I support Map 1 as it is highly accurate in the current territory withheld by Al-Shabaab. I have shown many flaws pointing towards Map 2 at multiple occasions including it being derived on Twitter(the author themselves admitted to not knowing the situation on the ground). Replayerr (talk) 15:26, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Highly accurate is a bit much i’d say. Both have severe issues but Map 1 is incredibly wrong in my opinion Guardafuuii (talk) 05:47, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Map 2 or a compromise should be used. My key issues with the first map is that it doesn't show Tiyeglow, Buula Fuuley, El Adde, Sablale, Fafafdhu, Buusaar, Ber Xaani, Kunyo Barrow, portions of the Cal Miskad Mountains and many other key strongholds that are clearly held by al-Shabaab and funnily enough, shows massive portions of Mareeg being controlled, despite no recorded instance of this being the case. Map 2 isn’t perfect (shows major towns like Janale, Diinsoor, El Wak, etc as controlled by AS despite not at all) but I suggest a compromise should be done. I am no expert on making maps such as this so I might ask for someone else to make it. There is a pretty good map made by some independent researchers which is incredibly detailed which I may be inclined to use if someone made it into a .svg file, but yeah. Hopefully a good compromise can be made. Guardafuuii (talk) 05:44, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Are you suggesting this map as the compromise? I mean, I don’t know if we can use it because the source is copyrighted… apparently?

And the main problem with Map 2 is that the creators themselves said that the map mixes both presence and control. Making it terribly unspecific.

So we’re kinda stuck with Map 1 unless a better map is found. Zabezt (talk) 11:51, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, The map you link seems quite lacking in a lot of the towns that I listed previously. I think perhaps another map can be made to encompass all the towns and areas under the control of AS without it having an area of “presence” highlighted. I’ll try to make something of that nature today Guardafuuii (talk) 23:30, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

The two maps (for al shabaab control) are nearly identical though? Zabezt (talk) 03:25, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Not necessarily. I’ll try to make a map to resolve the issue (if that works) Guardafuuii (talk) 07:09, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Good luck. Zabezt (talk) 13:01, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Made one, hopefully it suffices.

File:Somali Civil War Map on the 5th October 2024.svg Guardafuuii (talk) 06:33, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

We need input from other users, but if it's sourced properly, it seems fine to me. Zabezt (talk) 11:12, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Map 3 overall is a good map, but Gabiley should be fixed, and Khatumo state should be shown as disputed. Abzeronow (talk) 18:22, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Why should Khatumo be marked as disputed? Yes, They both claim the territory, but the land is being Controlled by Khatumo forces and Somalia. Zabezt (talk) 23:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

It was a suggestion from User:Freetrashbox and a discussion had mentioned that the BBC had marked it as disputed, SSC is autonomous and should be colored separately from Somalia if we don't mark Khatumo as disputed territory. Abzeronow (talk) 23:19, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

But please add a source that isn't the module, it's how this whole mess started back in May. Zabezt (talk) 13:07, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

That map has errors such as considering El-Wak as Al-Shabaab held when that is incorrect. Replayerr (talk) 19:49, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed the El Wak claim, among a few others. Tell me if anything else is wrong Guardafuuii (talk) 06:44, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, Gabiley's location needs to be fixed. Zabezt (talk) 14:09, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed it Guardafuuii (talk) 23:17, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

None of the above. Map 1 is bad as it's a WP:SYNTH mess, with the cited sources not matching what the map shows. Map 2 is bad because it cites an X thread instead of anything coming close to a reputable source. Map 3 suffers from similar problems of WP:SYNTH as map 1. I would propose a Map 4 be added for Al-Shaabab control based on the area shown in Al Shabaab’s Area of Operations. by Critical Threats. https://www.criticalthreats.org/analysis/al-shabaabs-area-of-operations. If the area of control shown on this map can be adapted into one of the templates already being used that would work best. The source does not have problems with WP:SYNTH and the source is more credible than a twitter post (it's still not the best, using a think tank instead of a scholarly article, but I suppose getting a map from the latter will take time for the academia machine to run it's course). One advantage with this map is differentiating between areas of control and areas of presence. Map 2 has similar borders overall but much of the area it describes as control is described by Critical Threats as merely presence.

‌ HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 02:58, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on the claims of original research? Almost everything (at least, in my map) is sourced quite clearly. The ‘Critical Threats’ map suffers a key issue, that it doesn’t exactly clearly define certain areas of control. Guardafuuii (talk) 22:59, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

For original research, none of the eight sources from the map have their own visuals, so one has to go off textual descriptions. No description of how each source has been used is given, which makes it unclear where any one detail on the map was taken from. From the reading I've done I also don't believe such a detailed zone of control of possible from just eight sources.

The lack of areas of control is a problem, yes, but that's true for all insurgencies. While having clean lines on map is convenient its usually oversimplifying things. The Critical Threats map shows the situation is much more nuanced, where many areas have Al Shabaab operations but actual administration is under local governments. I don't think any solution will come out from that, in my view those areas marked as presence should be shown with unclear control on the map. This way, it's clear to the reader that there is no clear idea of what's going on in southern Somalia now HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 23:30, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that WP:SYNTH is a problem, but these maps have been breaking that rule since their existence, it's extremely hard to find a map that shows every inch of Al-Shabaab territory.

Map 2 also breaks this rule, the creators said so themselves, but there is also this map, Which is good, but the source is copyrighted. And the map by Critical threats is good, but kinda complicated (well, to draw at least.) Zabezt (talk) 15:00, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Can I get an update on what map you guys want? Like, does Replayerr still want Map 1? Does Guardafuuii still want Map 2? etc. Zabezt (talk) 00:18, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

And I added a Map 4 (not the one Hetman wanted, but this was the map used before this whole mess started.) Zabezt (talk) 00:54, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

If the Critical Threats map won't be used then this works for the time being. It should be modified slightly to only use the first source; its one map, and while outdated is at least an easily verifiable source that has no problems with synth. Using policy-based arguments its the best map of the four presented (it's definitely not the most accurate one. Personally I think map 2 is more accurate. But, sources on here operate on WP:NOTTRUTH, where the goal is not to truth the truth per se but rather what reliable sources say is the truth. On that end, map 2 fails miserably). HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 06:09, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Edit: Added an extra map, made by user @Seemsrathytaway, found no source though. Zabezt (talk) 20:51, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the one I made covers all the errors, I don’t see why we don’t just use it Guardafuuii (talk) 06:19, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

There are still disagreements all over here, I think we need to keep this RFC running for another month, to at least get more opinions. Zabezt (talk) 15:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

As I've said above your map is WP:SYNTH or, I'll add here, WP:OR. For example, your map shows two thin lives under Somali government control on the coast. Do you have a source which explicitly says these strips are under Somali control. If so, place it on this talk page. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 20:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Map 1

Map 2

Map 3

Map 4

Extra Map

• Zabezt, thank you for starting this RfC. I added the map images so that they'll display here. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:35, 3 October 2024 (UTC)