Talk:Sonnenstein Euthanasia Centre

Propose changing the title to Sonnenstein Nazi Killing Centre

I understand that Tötungsanstalt is pretty hard to render into English – or probably any other language – without sounding totally bizarre, but I think "Death Institute" sounds like a school or establishment for the study of the Nazi killing apparatus, rather than the actual place where it once happened. In translating Action 14f13, I remember coming across the same problem and I looked to see what other people had done. Killing Center (or Centre) is what I found and it seemed the best way to render it. I propose changing the title of this article and keeping the original as a redirect. Marrante (talk) 12:45, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree that we should look for a better name - I used a literal translation in the absence of any better guidance - but I'm not sure "killing centre" is quite right either. Wikipedia uses a variety of terms including "euthanasia clinic" or "extermination clinic", but none is widespread. Surely there must be some authoritative English sources that we could draw on? --Bermicourt (talk) 19:33, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Google is a great resource for something like this. "Nazi killing center" shows 9,500,000 hits. Nazi euthanasia clinic gets 211,000 hits. Nazi extermination clinic gets 2,170,000 hits. Even without this evidence, "killing center" sounds to me as the most explanatory and in that sense, closest to the sense of the original German, which I can never read without being startled. Marrante (talk) 20:11, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

It certainly is a surprising name in German. However, WP:GOOGLEHITS is not necessarily a reliable indicator of what to name it. Google books is more authoritative, although we still have to be careful. I prefer "Centre" to "Center" ("EU English"). --Bermicourt (talk) 20:35, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I took it for granted that you would just keep the spelling consistent. For me, English is US English. For that reason, I rarely contribute to articles with UK spelling, unless I'm planning on a major expansion of the article, in which case, I have convert everything, rather than risk making a mistake.

WP:GOOGLEHITS does not deal with the issue of translation, rather with Google being used to prove notability and such. This search was to find out if there is an already established trend in the translation of the German word, essentially a numerical question. Google answers it with numbers, showing that "killing center" is in far greater use than any of the others. Nazi killing centre comes in second, at 4,200,000 hits. The first page of hits for "killing center" had at least two Google Books entries toward the top of the list. I didn't read down further than that. I'd say it's numerically conclusive that the article should be renamed "Sonnenstein Nazi Killing Centre". I also think there should be a redirect page for the US spelling. Marrante (talk) 07:22, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Most of the googled articles on "Nazi killing centre" are in fact referring to concentration camps like Auschwitz, so it looks like a generic term. I googled a number of options using death/extermination/killing and centre/clinic with "Sonnenstein" and got the following results: "Sonnenstein Euthanasia Centre" 109 hits; "Sonnenstein Killing Centre" 89 hits, "Sonnenstein Extermination Centre" 1 hit, "Sonnenstein Nazi killing centre" no hits. But the most hits was just "Sonnenstein Clinic" with 271. --Bermicourt (talk) 09:31, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Once you guys have agreed on a term to be used here at Wikipedia, consider making it consistent:

• Grafeneck Castle
• Brandenburg-Görden Prison
• Hadamar Clinic

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 14:24, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Further research of authoritative sources reveals that "euthanasia centre", "euthanasia killing centre" and "euthanasia institution" are all used with "killing centre" being a general term that includes concentration camps etc. Of the 3, "euthanasia centre" seems to be the best choice as a) it describes what it is, b) it fits with the often described "Nazi euthanasia programme" and c) it is consistent with the parent term "killing centre". "euthanasia killing centre" is a tautology and "euthanasia institution" (like "institute") sounds like a more formal establishment. Shall we adopt that for now - at least it is clearer - pending further research of the authoritative sources by those more expert than I? --Bermicourt (talk) 20:32, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Searching google books for "Foo Euthanasia Institute/Centre/etc" reveals that "Foo Euthanasia Institute" and "Foo Euthanasia Centre" are the 2 most common names with "Foo Euthanasia Facility" and "Foo Euthanasia Institution" also quite common. "Foo Euthanasia Clinic" produces no hits. Although plain "Sonnenstein Clinic" is also common; this is not the case with any of the the others places. So "Sonnenstein Euthanasia Centre" still seems like a good move for now. --Bermicourt (talk) 20:55, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

I'd suggest changing Centre to Clinic, as that avoids any ambiguity arising from differences in spelling of the word "Center" in British and American English.Hoops gza (talk) 08:29, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps, but a quick search finds no hits anywhere for "Sonnenstein Euthanasia Clinic" - it doesn't seem to be a name that is used at all. It might make more sense to live with the ambiguity, or look elsewhere for a title. - Bilby (talk) 08:52, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

To invent a name that is found nowhere in the literature just to avoid a minor UK/US spelling variation is not justified IMHO, so could we please ask for an admin to change it back to "Sonnenstein Euthanasia Centre". Thanks. --Bermicourt (talk) 09:25, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter that "Clinic" is not used in the literature. A Wikipedia search of "Sonnenstein Euthanasia Center" not only does not direct the searcher to this page, it does not even show up as the top search result. The use of words that differ in English like "center/re" should always be avoided in titles to articles.Hoops gza (talk) 21:44, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

If you are to apply this throughout Wikipedia, you will have to create several redirects.

I suggest the following redirects for every one of the pages:

• "_ Euthanasia Center"
• "_ Euthanasia Clinic"
• "_ Killing Center"
• "_ Killing Centre"
• "_ Killing Clinic"
• "_ Extermination Center"
• "_ Extermination Centre"
• "_ Extermination Clinic"

These are all likely searches when one connects the concepts of Action T4 with other Nazi policies and terminology, such as extermination camps.Hoops gza (talk) 22:07, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Euthanasia is an extremely euphemistic and polite term for this, but I suppose that it is the most literal translation.Hoops gza (talk) 22:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

It isn't redirects that are the problem, or necessarily the use of "euthanasia" - the problem is that this article now uses an invented name that isn't used by anyone else. We'd be far better off with a name that is used elsewhere, rather than creating a new one. Per WP:Article titles, we need to use a name that people are likely to search for - as the name isn't used anywhere else, people are very unlikely to search for this one. - Bilby (talk) 22:14, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Well it would appear that simply "_ Clinic" is the most common search for these places. Bear in mind that it is not a true translation of the original name for the places. We will have to throw a bunch of redirects at these no matter what title choice is settled upon.Hoops gza (talk) 22:41, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Not so. Whilst "Sonnenstein Clinic" has 15 actual hits on google books, most of them refer to a schizophrenic judge in the 1800s or to works of fiction; only 2 refer to this facility. Searching for 20 different names using Sonnenstein with death/extermination/killing/euthanasia and clinic/centre/facility/institute/institution gave the following relevant hits: Sonnenstein killing centre 8, Sonnenstein Euthanasia Institute 4, Sonnenstein euthanasia facility 2, Sonnenstein extermination centre 2, Sonnenstein euthanasia centre 1, Sonnenstein euthanasia institution 1, Sonnenstein extermination facility 1; the rest nil. "Killing centre" though is a generic term that also includes the extermination camps. My earlier research on all six facilities showed "euthanasia centre" to be one of the equal two most common terms overall, but I will conduct further research shortly. Bermicourt (talk) 06:37, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Well I would lean towards "killing centre" for these. Since that aptly describes the places, since it is something of a compromise between the literal translation of the German name and the most commonly used English name. I think that "euthanasia" is a bit too euphemistic, especially when the Nazis themselves did not refer to the places as such.Hoops gza (talk) 12:59, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

The Germans call(ed) them "death institutes", but the programme was referred to as the "Euthanasie Program" and it was carried out specifically under Hitler's euthanasia order. This is uncomfortable for modern day fans of euthanasia, but it's important not to see history as it was at the time not to revise history to match modern perceptions. In any case, my aim is to follow the lead of the reliable sources and I have no pre-conceived naming scheme in mind. But I will not amend the title without first bringing a case and evidence to the table. Bermicourt (talk) 17:14, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Right. As has been pointed out before "death institutes" in English might suggest to many a place of training rather than execution, which is a misleading title. That's why I suggest "killing centre". Anyways you have clearly taken the lead in investigating this so I leave the naming decision in your hands.Hoops gza (talk) 04:30, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia of the Third Reich refers to them as "killing facilities".Hoops gza (talk) 11:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Giovanni Canaletto

As I found, Giovanni Canaletto never was in Pirna. Also look at the birth and death dates. Giovanni Canaletto lived from 1697 till 1768.

But he was an uncle of Bernardo Bellotto, who was taught by him to draw. Bernardo lived in 1721 - 1780 (as it is shown in your article) and was a court painter of Electorate of Saxony (as it is written in your article). Bernardo Bellotto was in Pirna and painted Elba river and Sonnenstein Castle. In Germany and Poland, Bellotto called himself by his uncle's name, Canaletto.

You can look an article Bernardo Bellotto. PodSOLnyx 89 (talk) 11:42, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

"Care workers"

I'd be keen to change the term 'care workers' in line 20. In no sense could this knowing preparation for murder be described as 'care'.

My edit from 'care workers' to 'staff' was reverted - apparently "It's not what the source says". I cant actually see any sources for that section - what am I missing here?

What do others think?

Gilgamesh4 (talk) 09:10, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

The article was translated from German Wikipedia and divides the staff into their particular roles: doctors, nurses, drivers, carers, office workers, police. So changing it to "staff" doesn't make clear which staff were responsible for what part of the process. While what they were doing was clearly morally wrong, their roles are their roles. A doctor is a doctor, a nurse is a nurse etc. We don't normally expect them to engage in murder either.

In the case we're discussing the words used are Pfleger (=carer) or Pflegerpersonal (=care staff/personnel). I agree that seems incongruous. Other possible translations are:

• nurse - but we already have a word for that in Schwester
• care assistant - but that still has the word 'care' in it which is what you're objecting to
• hospital aide - but it's not a hospital
• (medical) orderly - but that sounds more military

The only way to nail this accurately is to research what that role actually did and work out what we would call it. Looking at the other roles and the rest of the text, I'd say it was someone not qualified as a nurse, but who assisted in ushering the victims from one place to another. Maybe orderly is a compromise until we have better information. Bermicourt (talk) 12:50, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for this very thorough reply. I agree that 'orderly' would be a good compromise, and I think it's used as a civilian term as well as the more common military usage. I had been wondering if quotation marks around "care worker" might be a fix, but i think 'orderly' would be better. I feel I'm being pedantic in the face of such mundane atrocities, so thank you for taking the time to engage. Gilgamesh4 (talk) 15:25, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

No worries. I've made that change. What clinches it for me is that the victims arrived and were processed straight through to the gas chamber. They're not residential in any sense; if they were, there could have been 'care' in the sense of help with mobility, meals, use of the facilities and so on, even if they were awaiting execution. But it appears there wasn't any of that.Bermicourt (talk) 18:32, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

The verb "murder"

Hi Bermicourt, thanks for reviewing my edit. I have had a similar discussion on the talk page of another one of the "euthanasia" centres, see: Talk:Hartheim Euthanasia Centre#The verb "murder". Many of the points I raised there apply here:

• The official website for the Sonnenstein memorial foundation uses the verb "murder" in the first sentence: "In der Heil- und Pflegeanstalt Pirna-Sonnenstein ermordeten die Nationalsozialisten in den Jahren 1940 und 1941 rund 13720 vorwiegend psychisch kranke und geistig behinderte Menschen." = "In the Pirna-Sonnenstein sanatorium and nursing home, the National Socialists murdered around 13720 mainly mentally ill and mentally handicapped people in 1940 and 1941." (emphasis added).
• This website is operated by the Stiftung Sächsische Gedenkstätten zur Erinnerung an die Opfer politischer Gewaltherrschaft (StSG), an entity established by the government of Saxony. The StSG is also institutionally supported by "Die Beauftragte der Bundesregierung für Kultur und Medien" (="Representative of the Federal Government for Culture and Media"), a federal agency.
• Involved persons were put on trial, but due to the haphazard state of denazification during the Cold War, a full criminal reckoning did not take place; many observers and academics today regard this as a national shame that was driven by the need to re-integrate and re-arm West Germany as part of the NATO apparatus.
• The German federal government, as well as state, local, and private institutions, have also thoroughly acknowledged that the events that took place during the Holocaust and related killings of sick people were state-sponsored mass-murder. See e.g. Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe.

There is of course more to write, but if you have more specific objections I'll gladly address them in detail.-Ich (talk) 12:49, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

"Euthanasia centre" > "killing facility" discussion

A discussion has arisen at Talk:Hartheim Euthanasia Centre#Nazi "euthanasia" centers seeking a consensus to rename each "euthanasia centre" to "killing facility", "killing centre", or something closer to the more common "Tötungsanstalt" in German. Stiftung Brandenburgische Gedenkstätten uses "killing facility" on their English page here; other memorial sites prefer "killing centre". "Euthanasia" was a WP:EUPHEMISM specifically employed by the Nazis to justify and trivialize their mass-murder; it should not be adopted uncritically.

The goal of this post is to invite discussion on the Hartheim page; I hope to reach a consensus that would apply across all of the T4 site pages and for Category:Aktion T4 euthanasia centres.-Ich (talk) 15:53, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

As per the discussion linked above, there is consensus to move to "killing facility". Here is the English-language website for the memorial (run by state of Saxony) that refers to it as "Sonnenstein killing centre". There was no concern about facility vs. centre. The talk page there also has extensive discussion on the appropriateness of the word "murder". I will move this page from "Sonnenstein Euthanasia Centre" to "Sonnenstein Killing Facility".-Ich (talk) 15:02, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

I support this as well, for the reasons presenting in the original discussion. Generalrelative (talk) 15:52, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Related requested move

To get things clear (and wider discussed) I have started a formal requested move: Talk:Hartheim Killing Facility#Requested move 5 December 2022. The Banner talk 17:29, 5 December 2022 (UTC)