Talk:St. Elmo Society

Non-notables

I am removing the following from the notables list because they lack documentation of a connection to the organization or lack proof of notability. They can be returned to the article when the needed documentation is found.

• Notability not proved:
  • Arthur Harding Bosworth (1908), founder and president of Bosworth, Chanute, Loughridge & Co, which eventually merged with RBC Wealth Management
  • Harry Valette Day (1895), president, manager, and first member of the board of directors of Custer Consolidated Mining Company, which in 1913 merged with the adjacent Tamarack & Chesapeake Mining Company, forming the Tamarack & Custer Consolidated Mining Company
  • Robert Bensen Meyer (1914), Navy Cross recipient for his service in World War I and lieutenant in the United States Navy

• Connection to society not proved
  • Matt McCarthy (2002), author
  • Ivan Obolensky (1947), Pulitzer Prize publisher and vice chairman Hilton Hotels Corporation
  • Fotzhugh Quarrier (1935), a colonel in World War II in the N.Y. Air Defense Wing and assisted Eleanor Roosevelt in organizing the WAACs
  • James Shulman (1987), author and president of ARTstor
  • Ron DeSantis restored to article with source

Rublamb (talk) 03:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Rublamb (talk) 03:24, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

DeSantis Membership

Editors, please consider adding Florida Governor Ron DeSantis to the list of notable members given evidence found at https://thecapitolist.com/the-wrap-is-ron-desantis-a-member-of-skull-and-bones-is-he-anti-vax-is-florida-a-low-vax-state/, https://www.missinformational.com/post/part-ii-the-secret-sordid-dark-history-of-ron-desantis and the page web archive going back to 2021. User User:Pbritti has repeatedly scrubbed this information and I strongly suspect bias. Please take a look at the evidence when you have a chance, thank you! 41.60.167.35 (talk) 02:16, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) IP 41.60.167.35 has announced that they believe there is presently a scrubbing attempt to remove DeSantis's alleged membership to this organization from Wikipedia. I looked into the article the IP editor cited to support this claim and relevant additional material available on the web. There is absolutely no evidence to support the claim that Ron DeSantis was ever a member of a secret society at Yale. According to The Capitolist article the IP editor linked, an unnamed source confirmed that DeSantis was not a member of one secret society while not ruling out membership other societies. The same article then references Wikipedia to support the claim that he was a member of St. Elmo; this claim was never referenced and was inserted into this article in April 2020 by a now-indefinitely blocked user . This is an open-and-shut case of citogenesis–see WP:CIRCULAR for the relevant policy. Don't worry, The Capitolist wasn't the only place to cite Wikipedia for this claim. Pinging Malerooster, who initially removed the claim that DeSantis was a member, and Rublamb, who is currently purging other unreferenced/non-notable names from the article. PS: Ignore my earlier and now-struck errant assertion on Talk:Ron DeSantis that Wangerfamily and the IP are the same; I was confused by reading the edit history of a different IP and made a false connection. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:16, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

41.60.167.35 (talk) 02:21, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

If you accuse me of scrubbing again you will be in violation of WP:UNCIVIL. You're new, so I'm assuming you didn't know you can't cast aspersions. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:32, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Please stop attacking me and wait for community input on the talk page per your guidance, otherwise this may require Wikipedia:Requests for administrator attention. Thank you. 41.60.167.35 (talk) 02:41, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Hey Anon. You could very well be a WP:SOCK, hiding behind an anonymous IP address. You are very insistent on this specific issue, noting DeSantis as a member of St. Elmo. You are oddly insistent on this topic. By appearing anonymous one might think you are new to Wikipedia; yet you appear to have some awareness on how to edit. I sense shenanigans. And no one is attacking you. Your insistence on this change seems strident, and peculiar. Dumping the anonymity, and engaging in dialog would be helpful. By the way, DeSantis was a Deke. If he had been tapped for St. Elmo it would have been an earned honor. I'll support inclusion if you have a solid source. But Anonymous editors are always suspect... Jax MN (talk) 05:28, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

What attack? Please, by all means, bring it up. You're probably better asking for input at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents for stuff like this if you want to pursue the matter. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:45, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Identifying living members of secret societies is tricky and should be done thoughtfully, given the nature of these groups. When reviewing notable members, I strickly look at 1) is the person notable or potentially notable and 2) does a reliable source connect the person to the group. I like making these connections, regardless of who the person or group/city/univerity is. However in this instance, the proof is lacking. I have reviewed the suggested sources and agree with @Pbritti. The Capitalist very cites Wikipedia and, therefore, is not a secondary source. The Misimformationalist also cites Wikipedia. Furthermore, Misimformationalist says DeSantis is a member of Skull and Bones–something that is refuted in The Capitalist article. Although this does not mean Misimformationalist is wrong about St. Elmo, it does suggest that we must carefully consider the reliability of these sources. Which brings me to context: both of these articles are discussing of rumors, rather than presenting facts. Even if these sources weren't citing Wikipedia and didn't have reliability issues, the discussion of a rumor does not rise to the level of a reliable source needed to connect a living person with a secret society. WP:BLP advises that content on a living person "must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives." Thus, I do not find this to be a case of malicious editing but rather an editor correctly removing information that lacks appropriate sources and does not adhere to policy.

Rublamb (talk) 03:19, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I'll give it a day or so before taking action on the article to allow for comment but I really don't want something standing malsourced when it already did so much damage as to spur articles in (not necessarily RS) media. Thanks for the in-depth review of material, Rublamb. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:25, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I have already removed this content for the reasons stated and have added DeSantis to my list (above) of undocumented potential members. Given the circular nature of the source, there is no issue with your prior decision. Rublamb (talk) 03:32, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

An update to acknowlege that another editor has restored DeSantis to the article with the New York Times as the source. Looks in order to me. Now, if others have credible sources that were published after the NYT that challenge this info, please feel free to share here for discussion. Rublamb (talk) 19:15, 20 August 2023 (UTC)