Talk:Church of Our Lady of the Rosary, Asmara

I added a picture from inside to wikimedia..

Gedenktable in der St.-Josephs-Kathedrale (Asmara, Eritrea)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.172.227.69 (talk) 07:19, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 23 January 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure). feminist 11:37, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

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St. Joseph's Cathedral, Asmara → Asmara cathedral – The church is dedicated not to St Joseph but to Our Lady of the Rosary. It is not now (and never was in the strict sense) a cathedral but, since it is still commonly called the cathedral, I can think of no more suitable title for the article Athbheo (talk) 10:47, 23 January 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:47, 30 January 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:32, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Comment. If it is moved then it should be to the capitalised Asmara Cathedral. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:24, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Has there been confusion of two churches? Mussie Tesfagiorgis G. -Eritrea 2010 - Page 161 "Among the notable Roman Catholic churches were the Asmara Cathedral (built in 1922, Asmara), St. Joseph's Cathedral, Asmara (the Episcopal church in the Asmara Eparchy), the Kidane Mihret Church (Asmara), the St. Francesco Church, Asmara." and what is the Enda Mariam Cathedral? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:05, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose we have at least three cathedrals in Asmara: Enda Mariam Coptic Cathedral (Orthodox) Kidane Mehret Church, Asmara (R Catholic) St. Joseph's Cathedral, Asmara (old Cathedral RC). In ictu oculi (talk) 09:15, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

However a move to [Our Lady of the Rosary Cathedral, Asmara] does seem to be required. Sources for St Joseph's are inexplicable. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:46, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose . Re-name to Church of Our Lady of the Rosary, Asmara with a re-direct to St. Joseph's Cathedral, Asmara and to Our Lady of the Rosary Cathedral, Asmara. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:24, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
• Comment Perhaps Church of Our Lady of the Rosary, Asmara is best. I don't think anyone calls the church "Our Lady of the Rosary Cathedral". It is commonly called simply "the cathedral" and nearby businesses are called by names such as "The Cathedral Pharmacy". This was the reason for my proposal of a generic name. I presume that Laurel Lodged means a redirect from, not to, St. Joseph's Cathedral, Asmara. Athbheo (talk) 21:00, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Happy to go with Laurel Lodged suggestion, Church of Our Lady of the Rosary, Asmara with a re-directs from St. Joseph's Cathedral, Asmara and from Our Lady of the Rosary Cathedral, Asmara. We can probably close this and move on now. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:28, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I see no need for a redirect from "Our Lady of the Rosary Cathedral, Asmara", but if others view it as necessary, I won't oppose. Athbheo (talk) 14:40, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

• St. Mary's is the orthodox cathedral of Asmara as per http://www.asmera.nl/asmara-churches.htm In ictu oculi (talk) 16:35, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
  • The Orthodox cathedral in Asmara is Enda Mariam Coptic Cathedral, also transliterated as "Nda Mariam". Can anyone find out what is the meaning of "Enda"/"Nda"? "Saint Mary" is "Qidisti Mariam", isn't it? Athbheo (talk) 19:55, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
    • Does it have to be translated? The German wikipedia uses the title of "Nda Mariam" for its article on the subject here. John Carter (talk) 21:39, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
      • I apologize for my off-topic query, which concerns instead the article Enda Mariam Coptic Cathedral (and the corresponding articles in three four other languages). As Kidane Mehret, to which the cathedral of the Catholic archeparchy of Asmara is dedicated, is often in English called "Our Lady of Mercy", I wondered what is the equivalent of "Enda/Nda Mariam", to whom or which the Eritrean Orthodox cathedral in Asmara is dedicated. Here what concerns us is simply the name of the church that was once the principal church of the now defunct Apostolic Vicariate of Asmara: Our Lady of the Rosary, it:Madonna del Rosario, and whatever it is called in Ge'ez or Tigrinya. Athbheo (talk) 15:20, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
        • John Carter dropped that question on my Talk Page. Inasmuch as all of our Tigrinyan & Amharic speakers have either left Wikipedia or were banned, I figured answering the question was my burden. I didn't know the answer, & assuming it was a place name element I went searching thru Category:Populated places in the Tigray Region hoping to find it used in a village/town name that was translated, but without success. I tried a couple of different Google searches, then found this link, which makes sense: enda means "family", so "Enda Mariam" would mean "Family of Mary" as in "extended family". BTW, calling that church "Coptic" is a misnomer: Ethiopians & Eritreans both refer to their ancient form of Christianity as Orthodox, not "Coptic", although it was administratively part of the Coptic Church until 60 years ago. -- llywrch (talk) 23:39, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
          • I have to agree referring to it as a "Coptic" cathedral would be outdated. It is now, I think?, maybe the "home" cathedral of the Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church. And we do have several churches dedicated to the Holy Family of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph in English language countries, so I can well imagine the Tewahedo churches of Ethiopia and Eritrea, who have been noted as having a high level of veneration for Mary, might use a similar term to describe her and her parents, Anne and Joachim. John Carter (talk) 23:44, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
            • Very well done indeed, Llywrch. Your success encouraged me to try further. In order not to add more than necessary here to this off-topic question, I'll talk about it in a new section below. As for the adjective "Coptic", I agree that it would be better to change it. However, I know from personal experience that, less than two decades ago Eritrean Christians had no objection to being called Coptic, while Ethiopian Christians strongly rejected the description. That too is off-topic here, since we're dealing with a distinct church (and Church). Athbheo (talk) 12:41, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose The official name given by the Catholic Church is St. Joseph’s Cathedral, This is a cathedral under the control of the Vatican that in 2016 created a subdivision called Eritrean Catholic Church so the names are designated by the Holy See. In the catholic church it is the pope who decides that buildings are called basilicas, cathedrals, parishes and under which they are administered http://www.gcatholic.org/churches/africa/1957.htm http://www.gcatholic.org/churches/data/cathETX.htm --Warairarepano&Guaicaipuro (talk) 21:03, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

GCatholic.org is a publication by a private individual, not an organ of the Holy See. The cathedral of the Archeparchy of Asmara is Kidane Mehret Church, Asmara, ever since Pope Pius XII set up the then Exarchate of Asmara and declared: "Eius porro sedem in Asmara urbe, a qua ipse nomen mutuatur statuimus, statuimus, et templum ibi exstans Deo in honorem B. V. Mariae Ghidané Näheret (id est latine « Pactum misericordiae ») dicatum, ritus Alexandrini Aethiopici, ad gradum et dignitatem templi pro-cathedralis novi Exarchatus evehimus, eique propterea omnia iura, privilegia, honores ac praerogativas, quibus ceterae sacrae sedes cathedrales fruuntur, dummodo iuxta probatum ritum et disciplinam exerceantur": the words of a Pope in the papal bull Aethiopica Alexandrini, given on page 207 of the Acta Apostolicae Sedis of 1952, not the words of a private individual in his blog. The cathedral was not changed when the Exarchate became an Eparchy (Pope John XXIII's bull Quod venerabiles, p. 648 of the 1961 Acta Apostolicae Sedis), nor when the Eparchy became an Archeparchy (Pope Francis's bull Multum fructum, p. 246 of the 2015 Acta Apostolicae Sedis). Athbheo (talk) 09:19, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Warairarepano has not repeated the claim that the church a) is the cathedral of the Archeparchy of Asmara, and b) is called St Joseph's. The cathedral of the Ethiopic-Rite archeparchy is instead Kidane Mehret Church, Asmara, rebuilt in 1969, with Ethiopic-Rite liturgy, while the church that was the principal church of the Latin-Rite vicariate still conducts its services in the Roman Rite, In ictu oculi has commented that sources for "St Joseph's" are inexplicable, and the statement that the church is dedicated to Our Lady of the Rosary is made clearly and explicitly by the religious order that built the church and is still serving it and in a video documentary by a school directly associated with the church, as well as in other sources. Athbheo (talk) 10:10, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Enda/Nda

Llywrch, I was lucky enough to come across this site, which gives more or less the same information you found, but in addition gives the word in abugida, as እንዳ, which opens other possibilities. This dictionary also translates እንዳ as "clan :group of people related by blood or marriage". If "Enda/Nda Mariam" means something like family or lineage of Mary, does it perhaps correspond to the idea of Tree of Jesse or Joachim and Ann? "Enda" appears in the names of Eritrean monasteries also: "Enda Abba Endreys monastery" and "Enda Abu Yonas Laelay" here. But in combination with other words (እንዳ of X), this dictionary provides phrases that mean "butcher's shop" (እንዳ of bacon), "baker's shop" (እንዳ of bread), "sheep pen", "stable", "church tower, steeple" (እንዳ of bell), "pastry, pastry shop", "portfolio, wallet" (እንዳ of money), "dairy, creamery". I think therefore that "Enda/Nda Mariam" may mean no more than "Church of Mary". If እንዳ were part of the title of the church, I would expect it to be a Ge'ez word, but it seems to be only Tigrinya. Google Translate for Amharic seems unsuccessful in dealing with it. For እንዳ in isolation it gives "as"; after another word it gives "and", seemingly confusing it with the -inna that in Amharic is tacked on to the preceding word. (Amharic thinks of "A and B" as "A-and B", while we think of it as "A and-B". Athbheo (talk) 12:41, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

User:Llywrch, Hgetnet, who wrote an article on Enda Mariam in the Amharic Wikipedia, seems to be still somewhat active on that Wikipedia, with nine edits last month. Athbheo (talk) 17:22, 8 February 2017c (UTC)

The problem with translating "Enda" as "shop" is that there is a woreda in Tigray named Endamehoni, a part of Ethiopia full of ancient & historic place names: nearby is the woreda of Gulomahda, which bears the Ethiopian name for the Queen of Sheba; not far to the south is the ancient complex of Lalibela; & churches over a thousand years old can be found in caves near countless villages in the area. I suspect that Endamehoni should be parsed as "family/kindred of Mehoni", doubtless a legendary or historical figure of some import. (One frustrating issue I had with Ethiopian history is that every time I thought I had part of it nailed down, I would stumble upon something that would show there remained vast amounts of related information I hadn't even a suspicion existed. After finding myself feeling as if I had to start over a few dozen times, I was ready to work on something else.) And FWIW, the more usual word for "church" -- at least in Amharic, although I thought it also applied to Tigrinya -- is betkristian -- literally "Christian house"; in practically all Christian denominations, a church is also referred to as a house, usually "The House of the Lord". I'm writing all this more to state my reservations, for you may be entirely correct. (See my comment about "every time I thought I had part of it nailed down".) -- llywrch (talk) 21:16, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

I certainly don't think enda means "shop". When associated with another noun (enda of something), it clearly is used in Tigrinya to indicate − perhaps among other usages − a structure, often but not always a building, associated with that other noun. An enda of bread (a bread enda) is a bakery, an enda of milk (a milk enda) is a dairy, an enda of sheep (a sheep enda) is a sheep pen, an enda of a bell (a bell enda) is a belfry, an enda of money (a money enda) is a wallet. It seems natural to understand Enda of Mariam (the Mary enda) as "structure of Mary", the Mary church. The building that is called the Enda of Mariam is also called, according to the Eritrean Ministry of Information, "the Saint Mary Church", which, after its 1920 rebuilding, "assumed (recte "resumed"?) its previous name dedicated to Kidisti-mariam (saint- marry)" (sic). The Amharic Wikipedia's article on Enda Mariam begins: እንዳ ማርያም (ቅድስት ማርያም) = Enda Mariam (Saint Mary). There seems to be no reason to believe the church is dedicated to anything other than Mary herself and no evidence whatever of Ethiopian devotion to "the family of Mary" (whatever that may mean), unlike their well-known devotion to Mary as associated with the Covenant of Mercy (Kidane Mihret), the covenant by which Jesus guaranteed to his mother that those who appealed to her intercession would be saved. As I see see it, the normal English for Enda Mariam is "St Mary's". Athbheo (talk) 09:56, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 22 February 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 13:01, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

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St. Joseph's Cathedral, Asmara → Church of Our Lady of the Rosary, Asmara – In the above discussion on #Requested move 23 January 2017 all, including the original proposer, were against making the move that was originally suggested. On the other hand, only one of those who commented opposed the generally accepted idea of moving to "Church of Our Lady of the Rosary, Asmara". The discussion was closed as "result was not moved". The reason given by the one objector was that www.gcatholic.org gave the name of the church as "St. Joseph's Cathedral". It no longer does: see http://www.gcatholic.org/churches/africa/1957.htm http://www.gcatholic.org/churches/data/cathETX.htm. (Disclosure: It was I who brought the error to the notice of www.gcatholic.org.) I therefore request those who joined in the discussion above to make further comments: User:Necrothesp, User:In ictu oculi, User:Laurel Lodged, User:John Carter, User:Llywrch, User:Warairarepano&Guaicaipuro, User:Feminist Athbheo (talk) 08:55, 22 February 2017 (UTC).

• Support In ictu oculi (talk) 09:04, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
• Support per nom. I originally thought the "Church of" part could be dropped, but a quick search of other similar churches on WP showed that it is usually present (see e.g. List of Catholic churches in the United States), so consistency supports including it. Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 09:38, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:38, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.