Talk:Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Name of Exile

The prior "consensus" - which was two users - was that the name Meetra Surik and the Exile being female doesn't belong here because "Since the character was never named in KOTOR 2 and no one involved with the game development has back-identified him from "The Old Republic" to KOTOR 2, it shouldn't be put into this page as it would basically amount to unreferenced OR." That's not how sources work. The game is part of the overall Star Wars universe, and Lucasfi;m (now Disney) decided how the game fit into the broader universe. That's certainly relevant, at least in a brief mention. I think the fact that they decided the Exile is female is relevant, as most main characters aren't. Mentioning that the player can choose either sex and any name, but that, canonically, for other stories referencing the game, she's Meetra Surik, is sufficient.

While Wookieepedia might not be reliable, the sources it cites are. The sources are the guide to droids, (formerly) referenced in the article, which calls the Exile "she", and other Star Wars books, such as "The Old Republic: Revan" give her a name. It's hardly OR to say that Source A (the game) gives us a character, and Source B (the book) describes that character to make it obvious who it is and gives her a name. Is it OR if a news article says "the Queen" did something newsworthy but never specifically names Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom in it, but it's obvious who the article's about? Of course not - that sort of synthesis is just editing. Besides, we're talking about a Star Wars video game, and fictional books are going to be sources for any kind of work where there's an entire fictional universe. One episode of a TV series can refer to a character in a previous episode, and both can go in an article about the character without a source coming right out and saying they're the same person.

WP:INUNIVERSE doesn't apply, since "canon status" is directed as much to future writers and readers in the real world as it is to other characters in-universe. PaulGS (talk) 21:10, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

I find myself agreeing with including canon here. While I wouldn't want the whole article, or the plot of the game, addressing the player as "Meetra Surik", I believe it's worth mentioning. KotOR II isn't quite in a vacuum, and with the Exile appearing in semi-follow-ups like Revan and The Old Republic, I think to fully address the game mentioning canon is warranted, though personally I wouldn't really go that much more than a sentence. Not to derail, but similarly, I think it might be worth mentioning works like Revan and "Unseen, Unheard" -- for similar reasons to why a lot of game articles have "Sequel" sections. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 01:34, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. The article doesn't need to go into all kinds of detail or the plot of the other books, and I'm fine with referring to "The Exile" in the plot section, but a sentence or two on how the game fits into the wider Star Wars world seems appropriate. PaulGS (talk) 01:39, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the source you were using (The New Essential Guide to Droids) is reliable. It seems to be written from an in-universe perspective, and it appears it doesn't actually say that the Exile is a female, it just refers to them as one. The name "Meetra Surik" is also not mentioned in the book. Another concern of mine is whether or not the Exile being a female was actually decided by the people that wrote KOTOR2, the Obsidian team. Markhoris (talk) 12:18, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

From the gameplay perspective, the character's name is whatever the player types in at the beginning, likewise gender and class. The real-world perspective is that this character's gender, path, name, etc. is entirely up the player. It makes pronouns difficult (he/she) or leads to awkward phrasing (the player's character) in writing a plot or gameplay summary, but it's hews to the real-world reality. That the license-holders later winnow in on specific canon traits and outcomes is worth including in the article, but I disagree with the notion that the gameplay summary should be written with/through that character's name, gender, light/dark choices, etc. lens. The article on The Force Unleashed (which, granted, has fewer choices), handles it well: when articulating the two branching story outcomes, it mentions and cites that one of these is the canon outcome. Ditto the X-Wing article, which IDs Keyan Farlander but refers to "the player's" actions. Perhaps it would be worthwhile for you to ping the Video Games wikiproject talk page for broader input? --EEMIV (talk) 13:32, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

The thing is, there don't seem to be any reliable sources mentioning this "canon" info. That's my problem. Markhoris (talk) 15:04, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

The New Essential Guide to Droids is an official reference book, so probably would reliable in terms of describing the "overall canon". That it's written in-universe isn't too much of a problem, I think -- the in-universe information is the canon. Official works like Revan are also canon novels (Revan is where the name "Meetra Surik" comes from). Ultimately, I think at least it should be petty easy to say something along the lines of "Later works treat the Exile as a female...", which is perhaps more clearly verifiable. If we went with the suggestion I made earlier, a small section like "Follow-ups and sequels" (probably not actually called that), we could also fit that in pretty easily and then just name the works and date, maybe any important details, and it'd be clearly separate from the actual "plot" of the game. For these purposes, I don't think Obsidian's say is really necessary. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 15:30, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Something along the lines of EEMIV's suggestion is good. I had previously used Surik in the plot summary to make it easier to read (no he/she, singular they, "the Exile was aided by the Exile's companion", and such. But noting any "canon" information separately might be better. Maybe it should be a separate section noting that, in later works, the game is incorporated into the broader universe with a female Exile named Meetra Surik, a brief summary of what the character does in other works, since I don't think she's notable enough for her own article, and noting which choices are considered canon. I seem to remember that in both KOTOR and KOTOR 2, the light-side path is the canon one, but don't have a reference for that. Obsidian may not have come up with the later works, but they don't own the character - Lucasfilm did, and they authorised the other works. PaulGS (talk) 05:19, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Plot summary

The plot summary is a mess. Regardless of whether the Exile's canonical sex is mentioned in the article, referring to the Exile as "they" is unreadable.

"the Exile is sedated by HK-50, an assassin droid, to be delivered to a crime syndicate... They are rescued by Kreia, with whom they form a Force Bond" Who's rescued? The Exile and HK-50, or just one of them? Does the droid form a bond with Kreia?

"The Exile then travels to four worlds to find reclusive Jedi Masters and either begs their aid or kills them in revenge over their treatment" Whose treatment?

"As the Exile continues their journey, they meet several individuals that join them in their quest" How can the Exile continue "their journey"? Wouldn't the entire group do that?

"The Exile defeats Traya... Depending on the Exile's alignment, they either order the destruction of Malachor V... or remain on Malachor V" How can Traya order anything if she's dead?

The plot summary needs a singular pronoun - it can't alternate between singular and plural when it's discussing numerous people. I realise that "he or she" is awkward, but "they" is plural, and, in this context, very ambiguous. Since - like it or not - the Exile is canonically female, I suggest female pronouns for readability. "He" would be tolerable, but my second choice here. PaulGS (talk)

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