Talk:The Super Girl

Requested move 26 January 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. This discussion had two main points; firstly whether the "The" is part of the of the show's title and is appropriate for inclusion in the article title. There was little dissent to this assertion. The second was whether disambiguation (Japanese TV series) was required, and I didn't see a convincing argument that it was. Number 57 20:57, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

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Supergirl (Japanese TV series) → The Super Girl – the current naming is based on http://web.archive.org/web/20090515190510/http://beyond.japanhero.com/detective%20show%20profiles/supergirl.htm but the title card actually used on that site clearly stylizes Super and Girl as separate words and prefixes it with -the-. This sets it apart from Supergirl (U.S. TV series) which does not do so. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 06:11, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose removal of (Japanese TV series) with something like this as poorly notable / barely source-able in English language sources we can have or not have the "the", no matter, but we definitely need (Japanese TV series) to be WP:RECOGNIZABLE In ictu oculi (talk) 09:18, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support move. The Super Girl is distinctive enough from Supergirl (U.S. TV series), (which in turn should then move to Supergirl (TV series)) with the "The" and the space between "Super" and "Girl". Hatnotes can also be used. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:36, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
  • There are many other topics, not just one other TV show. There's the base topic at Supergirl, for instance, which isn't a TV show at all. -- 70.51.200.135 (talk) 03:54, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
    • It appears any other articles currently in existence on the Wiki relating to "Super Girl" (in that format) are all music-related. But still, having it be The Super Girl is still enough disambiguation, along with hatnotes too, as I stated. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 05:51, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose "The Super Girl" should redirect to Supergirl, as one of the variant forms found in the real world -- 70.51.200.135 (talk) 06:43, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support - If the name of the series is The Super Girl, then that's where it should be, not at some other naming that only serves to create confusion. Removal of "(Japanese TV series)" is supported by WP:NCTV. Such disambiguation is only necessary when there are two series from different countries of the name. Disambiguation is only used when there are two or more subjects with the same title and, since there is only one The Super Girl, no disambiguation is required at all. As suggested by Favre1fan93, hatnotes can be used to deal with any similarities between the names. In fact this is the normal procedure in a situation like this. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:19, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
• More hints on the title: a DVD cover 1 and 2 of unknown release date and (oddly) a 2015 soundtrack release of the 1979 series (also here) which both support The Super Girl. –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 13:02, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
  • The original Japanese title says "The supergirl", no space. --Moscow Connection (talk) 19:02, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support The title card is pretty unambiguous even though the text in the article differs and can be related to translation. Hat notes and mention on the Supergirl (disambiguation) page can resolve any search issues. Supergirl (U.S. TV series) is primary topic as a TV series as well and it should be at Supergirl (TV series). --Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:00, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. The "The" and and the space are insufficient information to distinginsh one series from another. Someone call In ictu oculi, he'll explain it all to you. --Moscow Connection (talk) 18:33, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

I suggest you look at this discussion, and this one, this one as well, this one too, and finally this one. All of those move discussions failed, primarily because "The" was sufficient to disambiguate the cosmological model from the TV series. Regardless, if the name of the series is "The Super Girl", that's where the article should be. That's a no-brainer. --AussieLegend (✉) 19:26, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Let me guess why this happened... Because the series has enough fans to defend it from being pushed out of a nice title? Am I right? :-) --Moscow Connection (talk) 19:53, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

In this cast the proposal is to move it to the nice unambiguated title. Geraldo Perez (talk) 20:21, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

No, that's not what happened at all. The correct name of the cosmological model is "Big Bang", not "The Big Bang", "Big Bang Theory" or "The Big Bang Theory". It's essentially the same as here, where the evidence presented is that the name of the TV series is "The Super Girl", not "Supergirl" or even "The Supergirl". Regardless of anything else, that's a fact. It's stated in the article, so at the very least the article should be moved there. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:00, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. We, Japanese don't care too much about the space.[1][2][3]--Dwy (talk) 19:23, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

And that might be fine on the Japanese Wikipedia, which this is not. English does take notice of the spaces. They're very important. --AussieLegend (✉) 19:26, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I know English takes notice of the spaces and they are important, but the titles on the DVD packages may be more of "Engrish" than proper English. They were designed by Japanese artists for Japanese consumers, both of whom didn't really care about the spaces. I suggest you look at what it is called in (proper) English (in the text of reviews in English language, for example.)--Dwy (talk) 02:59, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the google translate of ja:ザ・スーパーガール gives the page name as "The Super Girl" and uses that title throughout the article. Geraldo Perez (talk) 03:13, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

@Dwy: copy ザ・スーパーガール into Youtube and you can find a few bad quality titles sequences of the series. The title shown on screen is both in katakana and roman. In roman, "THE SUPER GIRL" has a space, so it has not just been added later for the DVD cover. Yes, potentially this was done in error, but it is already in the series (not just the cover), and probably Wikipedia should not start correcting errors that TV production teams make? –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 14:53, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• Support If it is called The Super Girl then that is what the article should be called. It doesn't make sense to name the article something different from its subject. As for further disambiguation, the "The" and the " " are enough of a difference—even more than some of the previous such discussions provided by AussieLegend above—especially with hatnotes as Favre1fan93 suggested. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:12, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose removal of (Japanese TV series), the target is ambiguous with Supergirl. Add the "The", yes, WP:THE doesn't limit composition titles. No opinion on the space, I don't believe the space is meaningful in the original Japanese. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:25, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Also note that the translation of the Japanese article is "The Super Girl", and also else being equal that, the native language article title, should be considered the default. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:03, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• Comment. I can't find any other English-language reliable sources for this show, although that will be affected by our systemic bias considering the show's age and the fact it comes from a non-English speaking country. However, if the title is really "Super Girl", it would be ambiguous with Super Girl (TV series) (which then should be moved as well). For what it's worth, the IMDB page is under Za sûpâgâru, and it says the show is also known as "The Supergirl".--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:55, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
• Comment WP:THE does permits the definite article if part of the common name for article titles and the test for that in English is how reliable sources use the name in running text if the the is capitalized or not. Examples Crown and The Crown. We don't have a lot examples of English usage examples for this article. The The in this article does appear to be universal in everything we have including the original language "ザ" and " Za" although lower case in English translations of the title. "Supergirl" is a name, a proper noun. "super girl" is an adjective describing a type of girl. It is generally considered pretentious to put "the" in front of a proper noun so I expect the translation from "Za sûpâgâru" to "The supergirl" is not a valid translation and it does conflict with the poster reference which is likely correct. Super Girl (TV series) would not conflict with The Super Girl as the "the" is significant. Of course we will need appropriate hatnotes as there will be confusion. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:14, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
  • The Japanese title says is "ザ・スーパーガール", it is "The Supergirl" with no space. As Dwy pointed above, an average Japanese person wouldn't see any difference between "Super Girl" and "Supergirl". It looks like the English title on the cover of the Japanese DVD release was added by whoever designed it for pure decorative purposes and is unofficial. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:40, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
    • If it's on an officially released DVD it is in no way unofficial. It constitutes a reliable source and while Japanese words may not use spaces, English words do. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:19, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "Supergirl" is a name, a proper noun. "super girl" is an adjective describing a type of girl. It is generally considered pretentious to put "the" in front of a proper noun so I expect the translation from "Za sûpâgâru" to "The supergirl" is not a valid translation. — That's completely incorrect. Do you understand that the title is in Japanese and that the English grammar rules don't apply here? The correct translation of the Japanese title would be "Supergirl". --Moscow Connection (talk) 05:48, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
    • English rules certainly apply to the series' title on the English Wikipedia. For example, we use "Moscow", not "Москва́" as a title. Can you provide some verifiable evidence that "The Super Girl" is incorrect, as what has been presented so far supports that title. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:31, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
      • Actually, I want to correct myself or, rather, to clarify my position. "The Super Girl" is not incorrect. But "Supergirl", "The Supergirl", "Super Girl" are not less correct. Cause to a Japanese person there's no difference. Yes, we can rename the article to "The Supergirl (Japanese TV series)" or "The Super Girl (Japanese TV series)" if we really want to, but "Supergirl (TV series)" must still redirect to the disambiguation page cause it is one of several possible transliterations of the title of this series. And we can't rename the article to simply "The Super Girl" cause the title is too ambigious. --Moscow Connection (talk) 12:23, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
        • And again, the articles should be Supergirl (TV series) and The Super Girl. There is no need to use "Japanese TV series" or "U.S. TV series" as this sort of disambiguation is only necessary and supported by WP:NCTV, when the titles are identical. There is no need to redirect Supergirl (TV series) to The Super Girl. As has been stated several times now, the correct method is to use hatnotes on both articles. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:28, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
• I have a suspicion that we need a clarification here, and I hope someone will provide a better one if I am wrong: "The supergirl" is not the translation of the Japanese "ザ・スーパーガール". But "ザ・スーパーガール" is a phonetic transcription of the English "the supergirl" into Katakana syllables. Because of the different phonetic reservoirs of English and Japanese, transcribing "ザ・スーパーガール" back into roman letters does not give what we started from, but "za sūpāgāru". So the show actually has an English title originally (at least phonetic, maybe even in roman letters, see below), and there seems to be no disagreement that it starts with the definite article The. About the space, there is an argument if the transcription into Katakana would differentiate between "super girl" and "supergirl".

About the article title, IF the original title is "ザ・スーパーガール" and not "The Super Girl", we have WP:TRANSLITERATE which would call for Za Supagaru as article title, unless "there is a common English-language form of the name". And we have these Japanese source images [4], [5], and [6] of which we don't know exactly when they were created and by whom, but they all use the space. Confusingly, the seemingly oldest pictures do not use the Katakana title.

Can someone please provide a title screenshot from 1979 to solve this? –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 11:41, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't call for "Za Supagaru", read Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles#General guidelines. --Moscow Connection (talk) 12:23, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes that is correct. It says for transcriptions "from katakana, use the English spelling if available." Sorry, starting from Wikipedia:Article titles#Foreign names and anglicization I would have had to follow TWO link hops to reach this information. –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 18:49, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Youtube has some very few videos clips from "ザ・スーパーガール". All have both katakana and roman letters titles on-screen, and the (all caps) roman title has the space "THE SUPER GIRL", just as on the DVD covers. Arguably they got it wrong when transcribing their own title, but it is not up to Wikipedia to correct them retroactively. The title of this article must have the space in The Super Girl. –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 19:15, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, now I, too, have found some opening sequences online. And they indeed all say "THE SUPER GIRL". Okay, I'm convinced that "The Super Girl" is the name that was officially used. The article should be moved to "The Super Girl (Japanese TV series)", then. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:55, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: The current naming and redirection setup is a mess, far beyond this TV show article:

As primary topic, there is Supergirl with a redirect from Supergirl (comics), and a hatnote to Supergirl (disambiguation). So far, so good.

There are three TV series, which need to change title and hatnotes:

1. The Super Girl (Japan 1979), currently Supergirl (Japanese TV series), no hatnote.
2. Super Girl (China 2004), currently Super Girl (TV series), with a hatnote to Supergirl (disambiguation).
3. Supergirl (United States 2015), currently Supergirl (U.S. TV series), no hatnote, with redirects from Supergirl (US TV series) and Supergirl (2015 TV series).

Supergirl (TV series) currently redirects to Supergirl (disambiguation).

The spaced versions are currently confusing redirects: Super Girl → Supergirl, while Super girl → Supergirl (disambiguation).

The plural versions (The) Super_Girls are equally randomly redirected (but not affected by the TV series titles), similar for the hyphened versions and there is CamelCase, too. –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 11:28, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

So pretty much, once we determine if this article should move, we have to look at pretty much every other page within this topic and fix titles and redirect. That seems like what should happen anyways. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:57, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

I think we should deal with all the articles at once. For example, I think the Chinese singing contest should be moved to Super Girl (Chinese TV series), and then Super Girl (TV series) redirected to the Supergirl disambiguation page. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:55, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

This page should be moved to The Super Girl. The Chinese page should be moved to Super Girl. The US page should be moved to Supergirl (TV series). Although these are clearly different, it is also clear how easy it would be for somebody to end up at the wrong one, so they should have hatnotes pointing to Supergirl (disambiguation) which should explain the differences. - adamstom97 (talk) 02:28, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

The moves as I see it should be as follows:

• Supergirl (Japanese TV series) → The Super Girl
• Supergirl (U.S. TV series) → Supergirl (TV series)
• Super Girl (TV series) (the Chinese one) should stay as is, because there is also Super Girl (album), Super Girl (EP) and Super Girl (song).
• Supergirl should stay as is as the main topic
• Super Girl and Super girl should be redirects to the disambig page.

And then hatnotes all around on many of the article above to point users where they need to go ! Moscow Connection I don't believe the Chinese version move should happen as you suggested, because the space is still a sufficient dab, plus a hatnote would be appropriate in this instance. In this case, the one that is actually on the article currently. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 06:19, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't agree. A definite article and a space are not enough to disambiguate one page from another. (I also think that that whole case was started with the sole purpose to move Supergirl (U.S. TV series) → Supergirl (TV series). Sorry, but it shouldn't be moved.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 06:28, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Umm, Moscos Connection you do not get to remove sections of other user's comments because you don't agree with them. We are also not going to drop the whole debate because you are of the opinion that it shouldn't be happening. That is not how Wikipedia works. If there is only one series called Supergirl then it should be at Supergirl (TV series), not unnecessarily further disambiguated. WP:NCTV states that we should use disambigutation only when the series have "the same name" (obviously) and Supergirl, The Super Girl, and Super Girl are all clearly different names. That is a fact, and just because your opinion is that "A definite article and a space are not enough to disambiguate one page from another" doesn't mean we are going to ignore a Wikipedia guideline. This series is called The Super Girl, and so that is where this article should be. And there is no other article called The Super Girl, so there is no need for disambiguation. Not to mention (again) that we will be using hatnotes to clear up any confusion from these similar (but definitely not the same) titles. - adamstom97 (talk) 08:42, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Favre1fan93's suggested moves seem a logical outcome. @Moscow Connection: - WP:NCTV says that when there are two or more television productions of the same name the disambiguation should be prefixed by the the country of broadcast. "The Super Girl" and "Supergirl" are not the same name so there is no need to prefix the disambiguation with "Japanese" and "U.S.". The difference in the names is sufficient disambiguation. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:09, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes. When a spelling variant indicates a distinct topic. –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 15:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for linking WP:SMALLDETAILS Dark Cocoa Frosting. Per that, it says we should make all the moves I suggested above. Because, as a few have pointed out, "Supergirl" and "Super Girl" are two distinct meanings. Someone typing "Super Girl" should not be looking for Supergirl (U.S. TV series) and someone typing "Supergirl" most likely won't be looking for "The Super Girl" or "Super Girl (TV series/album/EP/song)". But if they were, per SMALLDETAILS, we'll have the hatnotes right at the top, pointing to the disambiguation page for them to see all the article, and find the one they were looking for. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:28, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

•  Comment:.
  To whoever will close this debate.
  1. Look at this: [7]. This article was moved by Favre1fan93 from "Supergirl (TV series)" to "Supergirl (Japanese TV series)" just 1 year ago, on January 23, 2015. Before that it had been at "Supergirl (TV series)" for 8 and a half years.
  2. See Talk:Supergirl (U.S. TV series)#FYI: Article title.
  It looks like some fans want to move their favorite American show to "Supergirl (TV series)" and in order to do that this article must be eliminated. It is the sole reason this proposal was made. --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:57, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
  • I'm seeing some WP:IDHT here. Favre1fan93's move was entirely appropriate, and in accordance with WP:NCTV, which I've had to refer to 5 times now. In my reply to you above,[8] I explained that WP:NCTV (that's 6 times) says that when there are two or more television productions of the same name the disambiguation should be prefixed by the the country of broadcast. The new article for the U.S. TV series was created in January 2015 at the wrong location (Supergirl (2015 TV series)) and, in accordance with WP:NCTV (7), appropriate disambiguation was needed between the U.S. and Japanese series. He could easily have moved this article to The Super Girl but did not. --AussieLegend (✉) 22:23, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
    • Here? Why not in the replies by people who want to move this page?
      1. In the very first comment In ictu oculi (who have been through lots of similar discussions and is very knowledgeable in things like this) said that "(Japanese TV series)" was needed.
      2. I explained that the original Japanese title says "The Supergirl" (w/o a space) and therefore "The Supergirl" and "Supergirl" are perfectly correct titles for it and the page shouldn't be renamed.
      3. After looking at some videos I changed my mind and I am now convinced that "The Super Girl (Japanese TV show)" would be perfectly okay and even better. I'm not stubborn or anything.
      4. There are several opposing votes and no consensus whatsoever.
      5. But no, for some reason some people still want to move the series to simply "The Super Girl" and don't want to compromise. Why? Who is WP:IDHTing here?
      And I didn't say that Favre1fan93's move wasn't appropriate. I'm sorry if it looked like I said that. It was perfectly appropriate. I just said that the series had been at "Supergirl (TV series)" for over 8 years and it's now incorrect to substitute it with the American one. --Moscow Connection (talk) 05:43, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

1. Just because someone has a lot of experience, doesn't mean that their opinion is worth more than anyone else's, and I would point out that In ictu oculi says that (Japanese TV series) is needed to meet WP:RECOGNIZABLE, which, if you read that section, I do not believe is the case myself, as that section doesn't even mention disambiguation. 2/3. This isn't about whether you agree to what the series is called or not, this is about what the series is actually called (which has nothing to do with you, as far as I am aware) and that appears to be The Super Girl. 4. The "opposing votes" you speak of include you and another editor who seem to believe that Supergirl, The Supergirl, and The Super Girl are all the same (or at least that differences don't actually matter), so I would question the validity of those thoughts in this discussion, which is at the English Wikipedia I would remind you; also, an anon editor who gave no reasoning for a seemingly irrelevant comment; an editor who believed that The Super Girl was too similar to Supergirl, which we have shown is not supported by WP:NCTV; and the above mentioned In ictu oculi. So we have some very weak support for The Super Girl not being different enough from Supergirl / not being recognisable enough (that is not supported by Wikipedia's guidelines) versus considerable support for there being enough disambiguation already (which is supported by Wikipedia's guidelines), especially with the addition of hatnotes. That looks like consensus to me. 5. Why should we compromise when we are backed up by guidelines, and you, at this point the sole opposition to moving, are simply refusing to see that fact? That is why WP:IDHT has been brought up.

There is no conspiracy against you. We haven't all come over with the intention to 'eliminate' this Japanese series and move our 'favorite' American series in where we want it (I am not American by the way, and Supergirl is far from my favourite series). We are all just trying to sort out a mess of different titles because we care about the quality of this encyclopaedia. We have determined what the relevant guidelines say about the issue, and have come up with a plan to move this and several other pages to the most appropriate places. We have worked as a community and discussed this plan to the seeming satisfaction of all those involved. The only user that is objecting is you, and you are coming across as so desperate to ignore guidelines and common sense that you have started throwing around ridiculous allegations, and trying to say that this article should stay in the wrong place because it has been there for years. My suggestion is that, unless anyone with good intentions wants to further discuss Favre's plan to move each of the pages, we should go ahead and ask someone to close the discussion. We are well beyond the 7 days, and I believe that an impartial editor will see that there is clear consensus here. - adamstom97 (talk) 07:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

1. We've all been through lots of similar discussions and most of us are very knowledgeable in things like this. The opionion he presented is just the opinion of a single editor and the statement made by the editor does not indicate whether he consulted WP:NCTV (8). He has not commented since his original post and many opinions have been presented since then so he may, or may not, have changed his mind given the evidence presented.

3. "I am now convinced that "The Super Girl (Japanese TV show)" would be perfectly okay and even better. I'm not stubborn" - And yet you keep stubbornly ignoring WP:NCTV (9). ;)

4. Consensus is for the closer to determine, but just looking at the votes now I see 4 support votes, 3 oppose, and 2 that just oppose removal of "Japanese TV series". The proposed move is supported by the MOS based on evidence presented and retention of "Japanese TV series" is not. The oppose votes all use arguments that have been rebutted with reference to multiple parts of the MOS.

5. "I just said that the series had been at "Supergirl (TV series)" for over 8 years and it's now incorrect to substitute it with the American one." Wikipedia articles don't own their spot. Any article can be moved if there is reason. Port Stephens (New South Wales) was at Port Stephens for 8 years before there was a need to move it. This article is no longer at Supergirl (TV series) and the evidence that has been indicates that even that is an incorrect name for the article.If the article is moved to The Super Girl there is absolutely no reason why the US series shouldn't be moved. You now agree that the article title should be "The Super Girl" but you haven't explained why the US article shouldn't be moved. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:28, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

3. I'm not ignoring WP:NCTV. This page was called "Supergirl" for 9 and a half years, so it kind of suggests that the title is correct (one of the possible correct ones). --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:55, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

5. you haven't explained why — But I've explained several times already. Because "Supergirl (TV series)" is ambigious. It can mean two or three different things. The American series, this one, and probably the Chinese one, too. --Moscow Connection (talk) 08:25, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

[9] ← Read this book. "In China, the program, known as Supergirl, is telecast ... --Moscow Connection (talk) 08:29, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

3. I've actually already addressed this immediately above your post. Based on the evidence presented here it appears that the article had been at the incorrect name for 8 and a half years. It still isn't at the correct name, which is why it needs to be moved.

5. This too has been addressed multiple times. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:30, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

@AussieLegend: would you mind showing me where you have addressed (a) the notability gap between the two shows: quote "The most popular TV entertainment show in China in recent years has been "Super Girl," " unquote etc.? and (b) the lack of "the" in many sources for the Japanese show? Where have you addressed those two problems? In ictu oculi (talk) 12:41, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - I've been asked to clarify why I believe that (Japanese TV series) is needed to distinguish from the much more notable Super Girl (TV series) 2005 which was a nationwide phenomena in China and is the one mentioned in English reliable sources, while the Japanese TV show from 1980 which I cannot find a single English Google Book reference to is not notable enough to depend on "The" alone. Because, in a word, WP:THE is not enough to distinguish a super-notable Chinese subject from a not demonstrably notable Japanese subject in two languages which don't have the word "the". The "the" (or "za-super-gaaru" noise) isn't used consistently. Look at this 2012年6月19日 "お刺身サラダ"～女優業～ ゲスト：女優、野際陽子さん。「キーハンター」や「スーパーガール」など次々ヒット作に出演し瞬く間に大ブレイクした野際さん。当時、監督に連れられて行った中華料理の名店「海皇(ハイファン)」で食べた『お刺身サラダ』が感動の美味だったそうです。そのひと品に女優人生が宿っていました。 This says Yōko Nogiwa was star of "Super-gaaru" 「スーパーガール」no "za" (meaning no "the". And that link isn't alone. A quick web search found dozens of 「スーパーガール」 with no za just for this one actress, didn't check with the other six actresses or the channel/producer. Why? Because not even Japanese are going to remember whether a TV show 25 years ago has a "za" attached to it or not. So we can't hang this article's recognizability on a "za" which sources don't all have. Sorry In ictu oculi (talk) 12:28, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Just to note that the Japanese Wiki has the same article as ja:ザ・スーパーガール and they don't add any disambiguator to the title. The jawiki also has an article ja:超級女声 about the contest. ja:スーパーガール is a disambiguation page. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:01, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I'd take that with a pinch of salt, ja.wp isn't anywhere near as active as en.wp and doesn't check as carefully for variations in Japanese sources as en.wp does - the fact is the variations exist, now we have to decide what to do about them. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Comment on WP:RECOGNIZABLE: All official sources of the title (the official DVD , the official soundtrack, and the on-screen opening titles of the series) have the definite article "the" in roman and "za" in katakana. Both. There should be no doubt that the official title is "The Super Girl". The article can have a different title than the official one if it is "commonly used as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources". So all Japanese language sources do not help here. And just a handful of English-language sources do not help either, as we need to establish a significant majority. Now we need a good sample of English-language sources for this series. If we don't find them, it is back to "The Super Girl", and we need to look at Precision and disambiguation if parenthetical disambiguation is needed. –Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 16:50, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
• Support renaming to The Super Girl per above. nyuszika7h (talk) 09:08, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Spaceless

@Moscow Connection: regarding this comment from you:

The original Japanese title says "The supergirl", no space

Do you know where I can view this? In the 4 URLS provided by User:Dark Cocoa Frosting in the post your reply was to, it looked to me like a space is between R and G in every instance. Where can the "RG" instead of "R G" version be viewed? 184.145.18.50 (talk) 05:34, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• The Japanese title is "ザ・スーパーガール" = "Zā Sūpāgāru" = "The Supergirl". --Moscow Connection (talk) 05:36, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

@Moscow Connection: it looks like you are relying on a romanization of the kanji. Oddly Google Translate separates this as "Super Girl". Did this kanji initially present without any accompanying roman alphabet as we can see on the upper right of File:Supergirl (Japanese TV series).jpg ? Speaking of which, I think that file could use a rename. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 05:52, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• The original title is in Japanese and there is no "・" between "super" and "girl". That's all I know.
  Why would it be accompanied by a Roman-alphabetized version? A "normal" Japanese person is not supposed to be able to read it. --Moscow Connection (talk) 06:03, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Regardless, it was agreed upon above that the English name, per the home media covers, is The Super Girl. That is an official translation, not one by Google translate or an editor. - adamstom97 (talk) 08:11, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

This isn't really about the conversion between katakana to roman or vice versa. The show has a roman English title on screen. See above: on 6 February 2016, Moscow Connection wrote Yes, now I, too, have found some opening sequences online. And they indeed all say "THE SUPER GIRL". Okay, I'm convinced that "The Super Girl" is the name that was officially used. One might argue that the show's original katakana title does not completely agree with the show's original roman/English title, but we cannot fix that by "correcting" the show's original English title. The English WP uses the original English title, which has the space.–Dark Cocoa Frosting (talk) 20:48, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

What I said is that "Supergirl" was just as correct.
Okay, I will give you an example:
I've just created an article for a song titled "スーパーヒーロー" ("Sūpāhīrō", no space). On YouTube (on the group's VEVO channel) it is titled "Superhero" [10], while the covers say "SUPER HERO" [11]. Another single by the same group says "Natsudaze Johnny" in Latin script on its cover, while actually "natsu" means "summer", "da" means "is" and "ze" is a particle. Or something like "NAITEMO IINDAYO" [12], where "naite" means "crying", "mo" means "also", "ii" means "good", etc. Japanese people don't care about spaces. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:04, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

But we don't care about '"Normal" Japanese people', we care what the actual title is, and it isn't your translation, especially if different translators are going to come up with different things depending on whether they care about spaces or not. That is why we use what is on the English cover, whether you think it is "just as correct" or not. The fact is that the English title is The Super Girl, and this is the English Wikipedia, and that is why the above discussion played out as it did. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:14, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

It's not an English title, it's just something they put in the titles. And even if it were, "The Supergirl" would still be the exact / the closest transcription of the original Japanese name of the show. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:28, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

If it is used as the official English title on the cover, then it is the official English title, regardless of your other translations. They officially give the English title as The Super Girl, so we use The Super Girl here. End of story. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:40, 2 March 2016 (UTC)