Talk:Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together (2010 video game)

Article title

@ProtoDrake: Nice work on splitting this article off. However, any particular reason this is under the Japanese subtitle? In the English speaking reception, it's just called "Let Us Cling Together" or "Tactics Ogre PSP" or the like (and in the rare cases of referring to specifically the Japanese version, just calling it "Unmei no Wa" rather than translating it). And WP:NCVG indicates "Use the most commonly accepted English name first", and I think LUCT is pretty accepted in English. I'd think something like Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together (PlayStation Portable game) or Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together (2010 video game) would be better titles for the article. SnowFire (talk) 19:24, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

@SnowFire: I was basically thinking having two articles where "Tactics Ogre" was used extensively in the text would be confusing. I was writing both of these in my sandbox at the same time. I suppose "Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together (2010 video game)" would work. It's what was done with the Trials of Mana remake. I was just exhausted from the amount of research and writing I'd needed to do for these articles. --ProtoDrake (talk) 19:32, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough, just I think the current title is confusing too - I was wondering if there was some mysterious new Tactics Ogre announced at Nintendo Direct or the like when I saw this on the WPVG talk page, not having seen this version of the subtitle in English before. Maybe just calling it "the remake" or "PSP version" when needing to differentiate from Tactics Ogre SNES/PSX would be clear enough? SnowFire (talk) 19:36, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Also, while I'm here - does the math add up on the dates in the lede? It says that Unmei no Wa only came about due to the success of FFT: WotL. But WOTL came out in 2007. Even assuming the first month's sales were strong enough to call it a success and greenlight the TOPSP project, wouldn't that be more like 3 & a half years of development? Unless they were doing some prepatory work without it being approved prior... just trying to avoid readers assuming there's a typo when they see 2007 + 4 = 2011, might be best to say 3 & a half years even if unwieldily extra detail. SnowFire (talk) 19:51, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

@SnowFire: I've done a little editing. Minagawa does confirm in multiple interviews that the remake was first conceived following the release of War of the Lions, so I've adjusted it to reflect that basic information. I think I got overexcited, or misremembered some info. My bad. --ProtoDrake (talk) 20:30, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together (2010 video game)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kusma (talk · contribs) 10:30, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Will review this one over the next couple of days. —Kusma (talk) 10:30, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Progress and general comments

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Nice article, looks like an interesting game. I haven't played Japanese RPGs much, so I'll read with naive eyes. Images look fine (cover and screenshot both make sense as fair use, and the others are free).

• Sources: Look ok, but I have difficulty evaluating the reliability of the Japanese sources. Consider giving translated titles at least for the books (like ref. 12 タクティクスオウガ 運命の輪 公式コンプリートガイド where I can only read the kanji and see that it is related to "wheel of fortune"). #
  • Done.
• I will put this on hold for now. It needs a lot of copyediting for grammar and sometimes clarity or redundancy, see my comments below. It would often be nice to learn more about what the game is, not just whether it is the same as its predecessor. —Kusma (talk) 15:11, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
  • @Kusma: I've included an entire extra paragraph in the dev section explaining the original game, the series it's part of, and some of the other pieces that I realise I referenced without them being present in the article. --ProtoDrake (talk) 16:10, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Content and prose review

Lead:

• Mention that Square Enix is a Japanese company?
  • Done.
• a variety of character classes to utilize and strengthen what is that supposed to mean? Can a single character use several classes and become more proficient in them? Or does the player use characters of several classes?
  • I just rewrote this bit.
• Super Famicom: our article is at Super Nintendo Entertainment System, a name that should be at least mentioned for those of us who have never heard of the Super Famicom.
  • Done.
• Why is Final Fantasy Tactics: The War of the Lions mentioned in the lead?
• localization: English localization?
  • Done.
• Downloadable content were released was
  • Done.

Content and gameplay:

• While it makes changes to its gameplay design The game is not making changes to its gameplay design. Better "While there were changes to its gameplay design" or even better "While Mx Gameplay Designer made changes..."
  • I just cut "design" alltogether.
• The Bakram and Galgastani divide Valeria and both oppress the Walister people. divide Valeria among themselves?
  • Clarified.
• Are these the same people as in Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together § Synopsis, just with different spelling? Why is the spelling different?
  • As explained in the release section, they're the same, just with updated localization.
• Is it worth saying what kinds of ending one can get?
  • Since they're practically identical, I felt it wasn't.

Gameplay: Perhaps the image caption of the screenshot could tell us a little bit more what we see on the screen.

• Do we have this battle against an AI opponent?
  • Sorted.
• pool of magic points which charge up do they start from zero or do they just recharge?
  • Done.
• Unit turns are dictated by their speed statistic and current weight, with the level terrain and current weather along with the current character class impacting a unit's range and movement abilities disentangle. Do you mean something like "How many turns a unit has is dictated by the unit's speed statistic and the weight it carries. The terrain and weather and the unit's current character class impact its range and movement abilities"? (one issue here is that "level terrain" sounds like "flat ground").
  • Done, I think.
• Victory in battle rewards experience points, ... skill points ... and items I couldn't quite parse this sentence. Options I see are "For victory in battle, the player is rewarded by" or "For victory in battle, the game awards" or "Rewards for victory in battle are".
  • Done, I hope.
• Is the multi player battle in an extra area or how does that work?
  • Clarified, I hope.
• I don't get the paragraph about questions and tarot cards at all. The first sentence said that the game has tarot cards instead of the questions of the original game. The second sentence says it does have questions that decide these tarot cards, which in turn change the character stats a bit. (Looks to me like this is more or less exactly the same mechanics, just packaged differently?) The third sentence then says the original game also had tarot cards. (Perhaps most of my confusion can be cleared up my removing the contrasting "while" in the first sentence).
  • Done.
• The World system, accessed through the Warren Report database What is the Warren Report database?
  • Done.

Development:

• Due to fan and staff demands, Hiroshi Minagawa suggested it and the project was approved -> "A remake had been demanded both by fans and staff, and [Square Enix management?] then approved the project on suggestion of Hiroshi Minagawa"? (further wordsmithing could help)
  • Smithed, I hope.
• straight remake ... remake without alterations a bit repetitive. You could tighten the whole Matsuno story a bit "Matsuno initially turned down the offer, as he did not want to work on a straight remake, but accepted after Minagawa decided to adapt the game for a modern audience". It is also not clear why Matsuno is "free from other obligations" when we have just been told he is working for Sega.
  • Did my best here.
• coordinate with the team not just "coordinate the team"?
  • Hope this is addressed.
• to provide an equivalent intimate viewing experience to televisions at the time of the original's release equivalent to what? why would televisions want an intimate experience?
  • I just cut the television bit.
• increasing the party number increasing the party size, or increasing the number of parties?
  • Done.
• reworking the class system to be both more varied and strengthen independent of individual units
  • I think I see what you meant here, and I hope I've addressed it.
• They included who?
  • Done.
• Character recruitment was also rebalanced, although it ended up being more difficult than in the original. if "character recruitment" is important it should probably be mentioned in the Gameplay section.
  • Done.
• It was decided to keep the graphics faithful to the original, although the team did not want to be too faithful in case the final product looked "cheap". So was this decided (by whom?) against the team's wishes?
  • Tried to clarify.
• The increased resolution and hardware specifications of what?
  • Done.
• preserve the style, but expand upon it using additional orchestration how does orchestration expand the style? Or do you just mean "preserve the style and add more complex orchestration" or something?
  • Done.
• who had a positive association with Sakimoto what does that mean? Did they work together successfully previously, or was this nepotism?
  • Yeah, I just rewrote this to remove the positive and keep it neutral.
• One of them was for Hamilton's music box. The original was fairly dark fitting with a scene where the music box featured, while the new version was written to be more believable as a love token from Hamilton's deceased wife I guess Hamilton has been mentioned above, but why does he have a music box and what does it do in the game? The second sentence needs to be copyedited (at least tense and commas)
  • Yes, he was in the first paragraph of the first section. I've done my best to rewrite for clarity.

Release:

• It was released on November 11, 2010 "It" looks like it refers to "Ogre Battle: The March of the Black Queen".
  • Done.
• and a fan book ... released in July either "was released" or remove "released" as we had "was released as the verb of the previous part. "Release" is a transitive verb.
  • Done.
• It released in North America on February 15, 2011 Is "it" the trailer or the game? Also, "release" can't be used as an intransitive verb.
  • Done.
• Ivalice has been mentioned before, but this is the first link. Move link to first mention and link in lead
  • Sorted.
• They used the Hittite civilization as a reference, but mixing accessible parts with the Byzantium influence due to a lack of general knowledge about Hittite writing Er, do you mean they wanted to use Hittite civilization as a reference, but didn't find enough about it and hence mixed what they found with things about Byzantium? Do they use Byzantium here as the pre-Constantinople city, or to mean the Byzantine empire?
  • Did my best here, it's confusingly worded in the original as well.
• character name changes are these changes between the Japanese and the English version of this game, or between different versions?
  • Referencing the English, clarified.
• used the game's tarot card theming as a "touchstone" for the dialogue's tone what does that mean?
  • Sorted, I hope.

Reception:

• sales of over 176,000 units in which period of time? first day??
• Link Sell-through.
  • Done.
• Date when the game was top-selling in North America
  • Done.
• principally gave praised to "gave praise to" or "praised"
  • Sorted.
• couple of "it"s are used referring to the game when it hasn't been recently mentioned#
  • Did my best.
• bredth breadth
  • Done.
• its story delivery undermining some of the major story beats I don't know what a "story beat" is, and would suggest to either drop the "undermining..." part or to explain how it undermines anything.
  • Rewrote to "plot development"
• and Ellis found the writing style dragged despite strong narrative payoffs. I don't understand this
  • Rewritten.
• Final paragraph is a bit WP:SYNTH. Were the World and Chariot systems just praised, or also criticised by those complaining about lower difficulty?
  • Just praised, and they were talked about separately from the difficulty.
• PlayStaion typo
  • Done.

@Kusma: In progress... --ProtoDrake (talk) 16:10, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@Kusma: I think I've addressed everything you mentioned above. --ProtoDrake (talk) 16:39, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@ProtoDrake: that was quick, I'm impressed! I'll have another detailed look in a few hours to see if there is anything else. —Kusma (talk) 16:53, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@ProtoDrake, much improved! This passes the GA criteria, and I'll go do the paperwork now. Good work! —Kusma (talk) 09:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

More on Reborn?

Given that Tactics Ogre: Reborn has substantial gameplay and presentation changes (including full voice acting and a massive rebalancing) to the point of getting all-new reviews, shouldn't we expand the Gameplay and Reception sections to reflect the same, perhaps by creating additional sections? I feel like the article will be rather outdated without that. Ilov90210 (talk) 18:53, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

In fact, we should even include additional notes on the development cycle too. Ilov90210 (talk) 18:57, 22 November 2022 (UTC)