Talk:Tatyana Afanasyeva

Old talk

The dicussion below was copied from User_talk:DDima; I copy it down here to preserve it for posterity. JdH 02:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Transcription problem Russian (Ukranian?) -> English

I was looking for a kindly soul who is a native speaker of Russian, fluent in English, and with perhaps some knowledge of Ukranian as well. And, most importantly, who is prepared to help me out with a transcription problem. The issue is: What is the correct spelling of Tatyana Alexeyevna Afanasyeva? When I search the internet I stumble over a zillion different spellings:

Tatiana, Tatjana, Tatyana
Alexeyevna Alexeevna Alexejewna 
Afanasyeva Afanassjewa Afnassjewa Afanaseva 

and all possible combinations thereof, and probably many more if I were to put some more effort into it. According to Exercises in Experimental Geometry. 1931 and Die Grundlagen der Thermodynamik she spelled her own name "Tatjana Alexejevna Afanassjewa"; so that would be a good reason to stick to that. Except for one little detail: Her primary foreign language was German, so perhaps this would be the correct transcription in German but not in English? So I don't know; I give up. That's why I decided to ask for help from an expert, and I hope you are able to help me out, or at least point me in the right direction. Thanks a lot for any help you may be able to offer, JdH 04:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not sure that I am an expert in this field, but I'd be glad to help you out. I believe the name should be translated into English, not German, even though her primary foreing language was German, because we are writing on the English Wikipedia. I really don't see any problem with the current article's name because it is how I would have translated it. Simple googling it gives us 225 possible matches (although I didn't google them all, and there might be many different Tatyana Alexeyevna Afanasyeva's...). Another thing that would help us determine the correct name would be her name written in Russian/Ukrainian, do you have it? Thanks, —DDima ^(talk) 15:57, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks as lot for your help. Unfortunately googling on the existing name only serves to confirm what is in the present article. What is happening is that there are many copycat sites out there that simply copy whatever is in Wikipedia; that's why you find so many hits when you google with the present name. You may want to do a simple experiment to confirm that: Deliberately introduce a misspelling in some Wikipedia article, and watch that error proliferate all over the internet :-).

Anyway, when I google for Russian spellings then what comes up with is Татьяна Алексеевна Афанасьева-Эренфест or Татьяной Алексеевной Афанасьевой-Эренфест; I am clueless of why there are two different spellings, perhaps one is Russian, the other Ukranian? Or is it perhaps a difference in grammatical case? Thanks again JdH 18:14, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know that many other sites copy wikipedia material. But for the Russian spelling, it is in the nominative case and the second one is the genivtive case. If you have any more Russian/Ukrainian name problems I'd be happy to help.:)) Best Wishes, —DDima ^(talk) 01:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

It makes no sense at all to apply some bizarre concept of the "right" spelling of Tatyana Ehrenfest's maiden name when she herself chose how to spell it using the Roman alphabet during her lifetime:

(From the article:

"^ T. Ehrenfest-Afanassjewa, Die Grundlagen der Thermodynamik (Leiden 1956)"

"^ T. Ehrenfest-Afanassjewa, On the Use of the Notion "Probability" in Physics Am. J. Phys. 26: 388 (1958)" )

As for the "little detail" about her having spelled her name in German, not English: This is a red herring. There are entirely standard ways of writing German word in English, but the only changes used are connected with how to render in English diacritical marks like the umlaut. In the case of Afanassjewa's name, there are no changes, period.

There is no justification for changing her own spelling of her own name.Daqu (talk) 02:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Mathematics education - request for reference

You added Tatyana Alexeyevna Afanasyeva to the list of mathematics teachers in the mathematics education article. Do you have a reference that shows that Afanasyeva worked as a mathematics teacher ? I have looked at her article and the linked biography, and I can't see her described anyhwere as a teacher. An anonymous editor (possibly yourself while not logged in ?) has added an external link to the list entry that links to a translation of a booklet by Afanasyeva that discusses the theory of teaching mathematics, but I don't think she claims to be a teacher herself. Gandalf61 12:52, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The biography at CWP at physics.UCLA.edu mentions explicitely that she went to a pedagogical school.

Tatyana Afanasyeva was at the center of the debate of how to teach geometry in high-school, and she was a vocal advocate for using visual aids. Traditionally, geometry was/is taught in a strict formal way, and she was concerned that students would get frustrated by that early on and give up on math all together. At that time (= interbellum) the "old school" prevailed, but her ideas were picked up and implemented later on. She was also involved in developing a mathematics curriculum for high schools in the newly established Sovietunion. I feel that an article on mathematics education is hardly complete without paying at least some attention to this great debate.

There are many sites that refer to that debate, see e.g. Hans Freudenthal, Eduard Jan Dijksterhuis

About Teaching Geometry,

Teaching Mathematics: A Brief History

thesis Ed de Moor

Bronteksten discussie Afanassjewa/Dijksterhuis

thesis Nellie Verhoef, Chapter 2

Fred Goffree Wiskundedidactiek in Nederland

Verum, pulchrum, bonum

Jan van de Craats, Honderd jaar wiskundeonderwijs

Aad Goddijn en Martin Kindt, Knelpunten en toekomstmogelijkheden voor de wiskunde in het VO

Interview Pierre van Hiele, Ik liet de kinderen wél iets leren

slides cursus wikkundeonderwijs

Thuis in Brabant, biografie Dijksterhuis, Eduard Jan (1892-1965)

Ehrenfest-Afanassjewa, Tatiana

Het 'gelijk' van Tatiana Ehrenfest-Afanassjewa

Geometry and Proof at Year 10

M. Marjanovic MATHEMATICS AND HANDS ON METHODS

Zahlbegriff, zwischen dem Teufel und der tiefen See

Geometry between the devil and the deep sea

Terug naar Euclides

Up to now I have stayed away from including a discussion of this issue in the biography of Afanasyeva, basically because teaching is not my area, and I was hoping that someone more qualified would pick this up. JdH 13:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
(the paragraph above was moved here from User_talk:JdH JdH 09:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Birth place

The lead currently reads:

Afanasyeva was born in Kiev, Ukraine, then part of the Russian Empire.

However, at the same time, Ukraine during World War I reads:

Upon the outbreak of World War I, the name Ukraine was used only geographically, as the term did not exist nationally. The territory that made up the modern country of Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire […]

And indeed, Kiev was the capital of the Kiev Governorate (itself part of the Russian Empire) until shortly after the Soviets came to power.

Thus I wonder what’s the usual way to refer to birth places which have changed sovereignty over the time?

TIA.

— Ivan Shmakov (d ▞ c) 12:53, 21 March 2014 (UTC)