Talk:Théâtre des Bouffes-Parisiens

Overlap with Théâtre des Folies-Marigny

This appears to overlap considerably with Théâtre des Folies-Marigny. The same editor is involved in both articles: Robert.Allen. I wonder if he can explain the reason for this? I see this article refers to Théâtre des Bouffes-Parisiens as a company in the present tense. This is incorrect. There is no continuity. The present theatre does not perform operetta (AFAIK). Jean-Claude Brialy, who was the director between 1986 to 2007, was an actor. AFAIK he has no connection with Offenbach.

It would be much more accurate to write these articles as ones about theatres, about which concrete information exists, rather than about 'companies', because the latter poses questions about organization, identity, continuity etc. In practice only large institutions are able to sustain theatrical companies in the long term. --Kleinzach 08:49, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree that in this case there is probably little or no continuity between Offenbach and the current theatre company, but companies do evolve and change genres over time. Just because genres change is not sufficient to say that there has not been one company. Levin's article in Fauser and Everist, traces the history of the Bouffes-Parisiens from 1855 to 1897. Her article covers only the period from 1830 to 1900, so I don't know the history of this theatre after 1900. The Historique section on the current company's web site mentions Offenbach, but apparently only as the one who built the first theatre on the site and gave the name to the current theatre. I assume that during both World Wars there were significant breaks in the continuity between the groups using it.

Regarding the article Théâtre des Folies-Marigny, although some overlap is unavoidable between that article and this, it does not make sense to me to delete the information covering the period of time Offenbach used the Salle Lacaze from this article. Nor does it make sense to delete it entirely from the article on that theatre. My original intention was to focus this article on the Bouffes-Parisiens as a company and the Théâtre des Folies-Marigny on the building and what took place in it. We sometimes do need to have articles on companies as well as on buildings, but perhaps Offenbach's company is not one where we need to do that. This is something that needs to be considered on a case by case basis.

The article on the Opéra-Comique, for instance, should not be split up into separate articles on the buildings that were used. The history of that company should be traced in one article. Compare the article on the Opéra-Comique with the article on the Salle Ventadour. Although there is some overlap, they are substantially different. Now articles on the different theaters called the Salle Favart might someday be written. I think if we were to write one on the modern Salle Favart, it would focus less on the repertory that was performed in the building and more on the architecture and design of it. That would be because the Opéra-Comique is, as far as I know, the only company that has really used it. If articles on companies become too detailed, we will have to consider how to split these up, which will depend on the specifics of the articles. We may want to have an overview article and then articles that focus on different periods or particular topics about the companies. Sometimes this depends on what information is known or has been contributed. I don't believe that one rule will fit all the possible situations, and these evolve over time. Sometimes we have to try these things by trial and error. When we try something that doesn't work there will be discussion and we can try to correct it. --Robert.Allen (talk) 10:43, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Barkouf

Barkouf was premiered at the Opera Comique! Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:25, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

You are so right! I even read that in Letellier's book, and still it didn't sink in that this is an error in Levin's list. In that case, we should definitely delete it! Thanks for catching that! --Robert.Allen (talk) 02:31, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

It didn't occur to me that we should double check her list. I was too trusting... --Robert.Allen (talk) 02:34, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

No problem (it might have done better if it had been premiered at the BP...)

I wonder what the criteria were for the Levin list? I had to look up Mr Pugno in Grove, who clearly do not consider him that notable (and no articles on individual operas). Audran is missing, as well as Les p'tites Michu. But more importantly there is nothing from later in the theatre's history. The excellent L'encyclopédie multimedia de la comédie musicale théâtrale en France (1918-1940) has a page on the theatre with premieres from 1918-40 (http://194.254.96.55/cm/?for=fic&clethe=37). If you were to consult that I think a couple of pieces by Christiné and Yvain plus the Honegger would be good to add. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:36, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Her article, according to the title, covers the period 1830–1900. That's why her list stops early. We should definitely work on adding some more recent productions. --Robert.Allen (talk) 03:27, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. It looks like they did musical theatre up until 1938. (Does that mean it was the same company up until then? Seems likely.) My ability to read French is not great, but it seems to that Albert Willemetz took over 1921 and in 1938 decided to drop musical theatre, as the theatre was too small to due justice to the genre. Did he remain the director until 1958? That doesn't sound like a break in the continuity of the theatre to me. Just a director deciding to switch the genres. (If so he was director for a long time.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 04:09, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the trend was towards grand shows in the 30s and the theatre was too small for that (I think the orchestra for Phi-Phi was increased from half a dozen players when it was intended for the Théâtre de l'Abri to eighteen when it premiered at the BP). On the L'encyclopédie multimedia de la comédie musicale site there is an audio interview with a recent biographer of Willemetz which suggests that he was an innovator in the promotion of merchandising in the theatre foyer - ensuring that the finale of each act repeated the best tunes so that people would come out and buy the music in the interval... Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:07, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

BTW, when I return in a few hours, I plan to start working on the 20th century. --Robert.Allen (talk) 23:21, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm finally getting out of here. Feel free to add any. So far my criterion has been to add anything that received a separate entry in Gänzl. (That's one reason I removed "Notable" from the section head. It just causes too much controversy.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:28, 21 August 2011 (UTC)