Talk:The River (Greece)

The Name

Why are they called "The River"?? 216.9.108.189 (talk) 23:40, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

He has said that he asked communications specialists about the name "to Potami" and all of them said "anything else but this".

So he decided that this is the right choice. http://www.iefimerida.gr/news/203506/o-theodorakis-apokalypse-giati-onomase-komma-potami-eikones

Apo-p 06:14, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok, so why did he ask about the name ‘the river’?? This does not tell us much. 77.69.34.203 (talk) 22:11, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Alde

they join the Alde party and group81.58.144.30 (talk) 18:49, 26 May 2014 (UTC) They joined Progressive alliance of Socialists and Democrats not ALDE — Preceding unsigned comment added by TURTLOS (talk • contribs) 03:59, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Centre/centre-left

@PanchoS: restore position as "centre to centre-left" - both are cited just as often ... No, not both are cited just as often; an utter falsehood. Your first source states something completely different; and your second one is the blog of a political organisation. Sources in support of centrist:

• Barber, Tony (21 January 2015). "Greek political dynasties will bide their time". Financial Times. ...To Potami (“The River”), a new, anti-corruption, centrist party.
• Mason, Paul (20 January 2015). "Inside Syriza’s economic brain". Channel 4. ...To Potami (The River) which I can best describe as a Blairite modernising centrist party...
• Konstandaras, Nikos (24 April 2014). "From Pericles to Potami". The New York Times. ...Potami’s pro-European Union, centrist policies...
• Mandravelis, Paschos (21 January 2015). "Tight election campaign prompts copycat ads". Kathimerini. ...Potami, the centrist party...
• "Two new parties enter Greek political fray as European and local elections loom". Euronews. 12 May 2014. ... the centrist To Potami led by journalist Stavros Theodorakis is one.

Sources in support of centre-left:

• "Remaking the political landscape". The Economist. 19 April 2014. Retrieved 26 January 2015. ... two new moderate centre-left parties, Elia (Olive tree), led by a group of academics and former ministers, and To Potami (the River) ...
• "Greek elections: Main parties from Syriza to Golden Dawn explained". BBC News. 21 January 2015. The River (To Potami) is a moderate centre-left partyThe

... and both the S&D alignment and the talks with SYRIZA support the centre-left stance That's just WP:OR, I'm afraid.

See also here. Alakzi (talk) 10:50, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

@PanchoS: it'd be nice to have a response. Alakzi (talk) 17:21, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

For God's sake, will anybody comment here before they mess with the party's political alignment? Alakzi (talk) 23:47, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you Alakzi that the party is overwhelmingly described by the English language media as centrist rather than centre-left, and the article should reflect that. (S&D group membership is no indicator that the party is wholly centre-left, particularly post-2009.) We should always be wary of categorising political parties based on news media articles, but until scholarly sources exist concerning The River, they are what we have to go on, and they mostly describe The River as centrist.Autospark (talk) 01:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Autospark and Alakzi. --Checco (talk) 13:21, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I do not agree. There are equally many, if not more, references describing the party as centre-left. Liberal36 (talk) 21:31, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Proof is required. Alakzi (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Proofs: http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/jan/25/greek-election-syriza-confident-of-victory-live-updates http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21637395-prime-minister-looks-likely-lose-snap-greek-election-later-month-it-not http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9610da8a-a496-11e4-8959-00144feab7de.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-elections-new-coalition-ready-and-determined-to-do-battle--carefully--with-eu-over-austerity-10004216.html http://www.euractiv.com/sections/euro-finance/mep-claims-potami-can-tame-eurosceptic-syriza-311509 http://www.enetenglish.gr/?i=news.en.article&id=1984 http://www.euro2day.gr/ftcom_en/article-ft-en/1296288/stavros-theodorakis-poised-to-play-pivotal-role-in.html And, believe me, there are many more. Liberal36 (talk) 22:17, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

The citations for center-left you posted do not discuss political positions nor explain what they mean by "center-left" or how Potami's policy correlates to it. They are simply rhetorical sources from English media websites. An English media website could also say they are "neo-nazi" (to say an example) and it wouldn't mean the party has that ideology. It must correlate to its policies.

I'm sorry, but simply googleing "Potami" and "center-left" is not enough to find reliable secondary sources describing a party's ideology. This discussion has also took place both in Podemos and SYRIZA talk pages, because many English media called them "far-left" without actually correlating it to its policies or political position, which seems a mandatory and reasonable requirement. Impru20 (talk) 22:32, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Give me a break. How more reliable can a source be than the Guardian, Economist or Financial Times? Please be serious. Liberal36 (talk) 22:37, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Please, be serious. Those same sources called both Podemos and SYRIZA as far-left, yet that ideology has ended up being removed from those articles because no correlation was made between parties' positions and policies with those ideologies. It is not the source of the information what counts, but the quality of it. Impru20 (talk) 22:41, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, because SYRIZA tends to the far-left indeed. The sources are right. Liberal36 (talk) 22:45, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, check the discussion, and try to break the consensus there, right? Impru20 (talk) 22:47, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but given the number of mainstream media sources describing it as 'centre-left', the centre-left position, though not equal weight, it probably does deserve a (fleeting) mention. Alakzi (talk) 22:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, it may deserve a (fleeting) mention (in the sense that "English media such as the FT or The Guardian say it is centre-left") but definitely not in the infobox, at least until a correlation between party's policies and the ideology can be made (that could enter into WP:SYNTHESIS territory, as we would make a summarised description of the party's ideology that may not fit with its policies). Impru20 (talk) 22:47, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

For example, that is the way it is done for Podemos and SYRIZA. The numerous media references to them being far-left or other things are mentioned within the articles (ground for that can be found in sources) but still, as no correlation between those ideologies and the party's current policies and political positions can be made, they are left out from the infobox. Impru20 (talk) 22:49, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

There is so much evidence that the party is considered centre-left. Centre and centre-left should both be included in the infobox. Liberal36 (talk) 22:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

If there is so much evidence, I guess you won't have any problem in posting here a source that actually does correlate the party's ideology to its policies. Until then, what we can do is to state in the article's text that some media sources consider them as 'center-left'. What we can't guess by ourselves is whether those media are purposedly (or not) saying that, because they don't make any correlation to the party's positions (and the examples I put about Podemos, SYRIZA, XA and the FN should be most evident). We don't have enough info to say whether those are mere rethorical statements or there are really some truth behind them. It is sources the ones that should do that, not us, as we doing that would be WP:SYNTHESIS. Impru20 (talk) 22:58, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

No, YOU should post a source that actually correlates the party's CENTRIST ideology to its policies. What makes you think that your CENTRIST sources are stronger than my CENTRE-LEFT sources? I am saying this again: The party's leader has clearly stated that "the party draws ideas from liberalism as well as from the left". Enough said. Liberal36 (talk) 23:04, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

First, you should calm down. Secondly, I'm not actually staunchly defending the party should be refered as centre. I left that out in my past reverts because that was the consensus version, but probably we don't have enough info right to correctly place the party in the political spectrum. Still, To Potami suffers the same that happened to UPyD in Spain, being regarded as both centre-left and centre, with it finally being placed as centre. In any case, since there are shources both describing the party as centrist and centre-left, we would convene that "centre" would actually be a more neutral stance for the party for now (specially regarding your rather aggressive behaviour as of lately, impulsively ignoring consensus on talk page and, for some reason, wanting to push forward his vision that it is "centre-left", constantly changing arguments), though I won't be against removing both for now, until more information is available. And thirdly, about the leader saying that they are centre-left, remember WP:PSTS, in that primary sources are not prefered over others, specially if it comes from the leader of the party itself (he may say that just to attract centre-left voters and not because the party is actually centre-left; electoral strategy). Impru20 (talk) 23:14, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

further on why they are clearly not right or left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFKdEe_Gics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtFaTcb0UkU

Interview parts from 2 major party members. --94.71.123.134 (talk) 11:41, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Also BBC is clearly a worse "source" than the official major party members. Fix this monstrocity. --94.71.123.134 (talk) 11:46, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

The founder of the party has clearly stated that the party draws ideas from liberalism as well as from the left. So the party is not exactly liberal-centrist. Liberal36 (talk) 21:36, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Read WP:PSTS: Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.

This is so, in the case of political parties, because frequently what a party member says about its party's ideology is not usually the most objective viewpoint, as they would tend to decribe their party in the way they want to. XA members, for instance, will not openly declare that their party is neo-nazi, nor would Le Pen's National Front openly recognize that it is a far-right party. Secondary sources are used to say this.

So, yes, for Wikipedia, the BBC would be prefered over party members' statements, you like it or not. Don't try to re-open the edit war, because you will be reported. Impru20 (talk) 22:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Look at the articles I have just provided above. All of them referring to the River as centre-left. The party is even more centre-left than centrist. Liberal36 (talk) 22:20, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Pro or anti-austerity?

Probably the biggest driver in Greek politics is austerity, are they for or against it? --CartoonDiablo (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Nobody is pro-austerity in Greece. That's a meme of Syriza (that only they are anti-). Every single party in Greece says they want to avoid austerity. --130.43.88.189 (talk) 19:40, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 March 2015

I think the beginning of the article should mention that The River has also liberal affiliations. They joined forced with Drassi, a fully liberal party during the last elections (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_06/01/2015_545968), and some ex Drassi members are now part of The River. e.g. Antigone Lyberaki (http://www.antigonelyberaki.gr/index.php/en/) FoSaP (talk) 14:49, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The sources need to specifically state that the party has liberal affiliations; otherwise it is synthesis. The first source you mention describes it as "centrist" (already in the article). Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 18:43, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Logo

To Potami recently Changed their logo, we should look into updating this for the header information. --73.123.201.68 (talk) 02:57, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Dissolution

If the party is truly dissolved, how come the website is still up, with the copyright on the page having been renewed for 2021? This doesn't make sense if the party no longer exists! Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 09:48, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Just an SPD vessel

It was created by SPD in order to control the situation in Greece during the debt crisis period. It failed, it was no longer needed, so it was shut down. 79.166.4.32 (talk) 18:36, 28 June 2023 (UTC)