Talk:Thermal energy storage

Add the term "Electric thermal energy storage (ETES)"

I think the term "Electric thermal energy storage (ETES)" should be added to this artical. References are: https://www.siemensgamesa.com/products-and-services/hybrid-and-storage/thermal-energy-storage-with-etes https://www.man-es.com/discover/a-tale-of-fire-and-ice

Delete Economics Section?

The 'Economics' section has several overgeneralisations (possibly from a US-centric view of the world) such as the peak occuring in summer, and being met by gas turbines. It is also not clear how it relates to the rest of the article, as it does not mention storage at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.207.11.228 (talk) 00:51, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Needs updating

This page needs updating to reflect developments since 2008. It still says molten salt is "proposed" and "can" be used as storage for solar thermal plants. But molten salt is now used operationally for this purpose in Andasol 1 & 2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jondoig (talk • contribs) 02:30, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

There are a fair number of articles on related subjects. IMO this article should be integrated with what is out there, and serve as a (better categorized than currently) index to specific applications of heat storage. It could be a thin index simply linking to relevant sections of other articles, or alternatively those articles could seek to use this article as a way to offload details. Trying to keep this article up to date when its scope/role is unclear will be more effort than if it is integrated first. In the meantime, though, I suppose there is no harm in dumping news/research articles in the Talk page for future use, and this seems like the place to do it, so here's a recent one: Azobenzene-Functionalized Carbon Nanotubes As High-Energy Density Solar Thermal Fuels: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nl201357n — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.232.0.70 (talk) 16:37, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

US-Centric Bias

This article appears to have been written for specific climates of the USA, and for specific types of building within the USA. It assumes that thermal stores are primarily used for daytime cooling in A/C systems. It describes systems used in the USA as if they are applicable globally. It should state which information applies only the USA, and what building types it applies to.

To improve the article, it could also cover other parts of the world, and other systems of thermal storage.

For instance, in most of Northern Europe and Canada, thermal stores are primarily used for heating, not cooling; and the national grids operate in different ways. Most European buildings have no A/C system, and rely only on space heating for the air temperature regulation.

In Africa and the Middle East where daytime cooling is reqired, the thermal store is normally provided by the heavyweight construction of the house walls and roofs, and there is often no A/C plant or electric grid.

Bards 06:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Possible issue with Molten salt technology

Potassium nitrate decomposes at 400 °C (752 °F). If the NaNO3 / KNO3 mixture is heated to 566 °C (1,051 °F), I would think that there would be a problem. Jim1138 (talk) 04:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Decomposition is the limiting factor for the 1050°F maximum temperature of a solar salt system (60%NaNO3 / 40% KNO3). The decomposition temperature of the mixture is perhaps higher than of the pottassium nitrate alone or the decomposition is still slow enough due to the kinetics of the reaction. Using a pressurized oxygen cover gas allows to push the maximum temperature even a little bit higher.Lars9e (talk) 06:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Molten salt technology example erroneous

Looks like that the number stated for the example 100MW power for 4 hours is 1 decimal too large. Calculations yield ca 10MW if a temperature range of 288-540 degC is applied . Would it make sense to speak about theoretical energy content, because, at present, neither steam turbine, nor mechanical/electrical conversion efficiencies are provided. My understanding would be that readers would benefit from an example which allows comparison with other power generation systems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Breithaupt (talk • contribs) 09:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Is There any Thermal Storage System For Household Purposes

Is it possible to use any Thermal Storage System for household purposes. For Ex. I Can store the heat from Solar Heaters. and the next Day use the heat to cook food in the morning. before sunrise??. These type of applications has not been discussed in the present article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ap aravind (talk • contribs) 14:13, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

An example of home use would be storage tanks on solar hot water systems. Also there is Glauber's_salt solutions and Trombe walls for space heating purposes. I have not so far heard of a product designed to work at cooking temperatures. The article could use a well integrated link to Passive_solar_building_design#Heat_storage and some of the other "See Also" articles would be better worked into the text. (140.232.0.70 (talk) 16:26, 14 July 2011 (UTC))

Yes, these have been in use for building climate control throughout history and prehistory, and yet there isn't even a link here to the trombe wall page? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trombe_wall

A good, if dated, reference on this is ISBN-13: 978-0882661520 Ernest Ruger (talk) 02:53, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Heat storage in solid media

Apparently, there is a misunderstood with the given example for the solid media storage. Actually there is no concrete storage in the Friedrichshafen district, it is only the water tanks which are in concrete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:878:200:1052:35CF:1286:F7D2:341 (talk) 21:08, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Molten salt v. pressurized water

If the idea is to power a steam turbine, I think it would be better to use a steam accumulator. Have any comparisons been done between molten salt and pressurized water as energy storage media? Biscuittin (talk) 20:35, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

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Proposed merge of Thermal battery into Thermal energy storage

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was merge. TRL (talk) 23:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

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articles are about the same thing with different names. Thermal energy storage is the most common way to refer to this Ita140188 (talk) 09:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Merge: from a quick look these are duplicates.--ReyHahn (talk) 12:47, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

  If you look at batteries, automotive batteries, Li+ batteries and many more have their own page. Thermal batteries and thermal energy storage are two similar technologies headed in two very different directions. Keep them separated so each of them can be expanded. Any merging would likely have to be undone some time in the future. Askelel (talk) 03:55, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Askelel: Can you explain what's the difference between Thermal battery and Thermal energy storage? You examples (batteries (general concept), automotive batteries, Li+ batteries) are all clearly distinct concepts. Ita140188 (talk) 07:22, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  The idea to keep them separated is based mainly on the direction of the technologies. Thermal energy storage may play a roll in large quantity energy storage for applications such as renewable energy intermittency control etc.; thermal batteries seem to be headed in a direction of smaller applications such as substitutes for car batteries, heating needs etc. The issue is that the term is used interchangeably but that may not be the case in the future. TES tend to rely on SHS and LHS while thermal batteries more commonly use THS. I guess I just don't understand the benefit of merging the two where I could see possible future benefit to keeping them separated. Askelel (talk) 19:23, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  I still don't get the difference between the two. It seems to me that they are just the same thing with different names in different contexts. This does not justify two separate articles. Ita140188 (talk) 11:40, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

  Please see @Clemenzi below. Clemenzi (talk) 19:25, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

• Merge: as seem quite similar Chidgk1 (talk) 15:14, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

  Please see @Clemenzi below. Clemenzi (talk) 19:25, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

• Definitely Do Not Merge: They are definitely different, and I will be upgrading this article further with specific emerging "Thermal Battery" examples in parallel with incorporating them into 6th Generation District Heating and Cooling training materials as part of a project at MIT. In a nutshell, Thermal Energy Storage is the technology involved while Thermal Batteries are one specific manifestation of that technology when implemented on a smaller scale. For example, Thermal Panels are also a specific manifestation of Thermal Energy Storage which we will be sure is covered in this "Thermal Battery" article. Using PCM Panels as an example, they can be active or passive with Active panels being a separate technology than the underlying Thermal Energy Storage technology. Thermal Batteries, at least in our view, is the specific field associated with the Active aspect ,,, and Thermal Batteries may also have or not have PCM materials included. Tus merging them all into one article under the underlying Technology would mean covering too many dimension for clarity.

Let me suggest this is somewhat like Computers where if you were Xerox in the 1970's you might say that everything about computers is 'such a small and uninteresting topic' that it might be one (future) Wiki page, whereas it is now entirely clear that there is a lot of variation and dimension to the field of Computers such that one would now never consider it as one article or even just 100 articles. Thermal Batteries the same such emerging technology as part of 6th Genaration Grid-Interacting Heating and Cooling Systems which is growing rapidly with active proving R&D occurring now. One such example of this as evidence of the field's now rapid growth is that the DOE has just established the ORNL Thermal Energy Storage Research Group (https://www.ornl.gov/group/thermal-energy-storage-research) which has both Thermal Storage and Thermal Battery R&D in process now. We have a Thermal Battery Utilization 6th Generation Systems Design Tool in development at MIT now.

We do not believe eliminating Thermal Batteries as a separate article makes sense. Clemenzi (talk) 19:19, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

If we keep the articles separated, any overlapping material needs to be removed, and the distinction needs to be clear from the first sentence and backed by reliable sources. That is, the thermal battery article needs to be completely rewritten. Ita140188 (talk) 10:00, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

• Do not merge. There are multiple forms of thermal energy storage aside from thermal battery, the simplest being a well-insulated house.

बिनोद थारू (talk) 05:39, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.