Talk:Tom Elliott, Baron Elliott of Ballinamallard

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 16:08, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Service in the Ulster Defence Regiment

Does anyone know the rank attained by this person? Gavin Lisburn (talk) 21:44, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Private/Ranger.Traditional unionist (talk) 21:51, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Controversies Section

There seems to be some debate and frequent changes to the Controversies section, with some detail being repeatedly added and removed. A discussion and agreed outcome seems a better solution than constant changes.

The two comments that seem to have issue are around the reason why Elliott refuses to attend Gaelic Athletic Association events and that the Provisional IRA is a proscribed organisation. From what I've read, the previous ban on the security forces contribution in GAA sports is the reason why Elliott will not attend these, and the fact that the Provisional IRA is a proscribed terrorist group provides context regarding the comments made in this incident. Therefore, I propose that these comments remain.

I have removed them as original research, specifically the part that says "To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are both directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material as presented". Neither source is directly related to Tom Elliott. O Fenian (talk) 08:45, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

First of all including the GAA ban on security forces is a) as O Fenian said presuptious and counts as original research b) not really relavent and c) someone trying to justify his comments about the GAA. The PIRA comment again is unnecessary given that it's so obvious and doesn't add to the article.

Exiledone (talk) 16:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not seeing the comment about the GAA as an attempt to justify his comments, rather to provide context for it. With the PIRA comment, I suspect that may be obvious to people who are close to the subject, but not so obvious to those who are not. Using the logic that neither reference specifically mentions Tom Elliott, would you be happy then to remove the phrase "an organization which contained members who are alleged to have colluded with loyalist paramilitaries during the Troubles" so that there is no specific comment on either organisation and both leave the reader to research these organisations directly? My intention is to create an article written with a neutral viewpoint, so I propose that we either include some detail on both PIRA & the UDR, or on neither. Does that sound sensible? Mr Sheep Measham (talk) 18:22, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

"Mr Kelly added that the UDR, British Army, RUC and loyalists were all involved in collusion which resulted in the deaths of many" says the source. No original research there. While it may be true the other two sources cited do not mention Tom Elliott, I believe in this case it would be prudent to keep them just so nobody attempts to only frame collusion as a belief of Gerry Kelly's. If you have reliable sources that explain Tom Elliott's refusal to attend GAA games due to the ban on members of the security forces then that explanation could be included, if not it is original research. O Fenian (talk) 18:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I see the UDR comment and reference being related to the subject in the same way that the GAA & PIRA comments are, and therefore suggest that either all are to provide context to the unfamiliar reader, or all are removed to allow the unfamiliar reader to research themselves. Mr Sheep Measham (talk) 18:38, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

No, they are not. The article says "after Kelly had pointed out that Elliott was a member of the Ulster Defence Regiment, an organization which contained members who are alleged to have colluded with loyalist paramilitaries during the Troubles". The source says that Gerry Kelly stated "He [Elliott] is an ex-UDR man", followed by "Mr Kelly added that the UDR, British Army, RUC and loyalists were all involved in collusion which resulted in the deaths of many". That said, since the controversy is over his "scum" and flag comments and not his exchange with Kelly (such exchanges are a regular occurrence) I would have no objection to the removal of the dispute with Kelly in its entirety. O Fenian (talk) 18:49, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks O Fenian, removing the detail of the Kelly exchange seems a good compromise. Any objections? Mr Sheep Measham (talk) 19:03, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Just to be clear I do not mean remove the detail, I mean remove it entirely. So "the scum of Sinn Féin" would be immediately followed by McClarty and his initial refusal to apologise, then his apology. O Fenian (talk) 19:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Agreed.Mr Sheep Measham (talk) 19:16, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

As there have been no comments to the contrary, I have made the relevant change. Thanks for the collaborative approach, much appreciated. Mr Sheep Measham (talk) 14:33, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

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