Talk:Tradesperson/Archives/2013

Merge - Journeyman

Tradesman is the common usage in Australia. Not sure about elsewhere. There is no article on "trade" as in occupation. There is a List of occupations. Is there a more gender neutral term, Tradesperson?

Paul foord 23:29, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

• In principle, a journeyman is a tradesman with the requisite qualifications. In Canada, not all tradespeople are journeymen. That term is reserved for people with formal qualifications who have followed an apprenticeship and/or passed an exam. So we have not only journeymen (or journeypersons) in the construction and metalworking trades, but also journeymen cooks, automobile mechanics, hairdressers, etc. In terms of usage, I don't know about other countires, but "Tradespeson" in the singular and "tradespeople" in the plural are quite common. As to the proposed merge, I think the articles should be kept apart, but I have no strong feelings as long as the material in the journeyman article is covered in the Tradesmas/Tradesperson/Tradespeople article. Luigizanasi 06:10, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I would vote against a merger of the two pages. Although the terms might be used interchangeably nowadays, I think "journeyman" has a very distinct historical meaning which should not be diluted by a more generalised modern term. I think it is a valid purpose of an encyclopaedia to explain the meaning and context of historical terms. Bluewave 15:09, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I also vote against combining. I'm a Journeyman Toolmaker and from my vantagepoint it isn't a term, it's a title like a 4-yr degree nurse is RN. While tradesman applies to anyone working in a field, a Journeyman has covered ground in the field.

People don't 'become' a journeyman by working in a field for 20 years any more than a person becomes an RN by working 20 years in a hospital. My apprenticeship was 4 semesters of college plus rotations through over 30 machines or processes such as heat treating and welding. And my Indentured Servitude contract still contained the 1800's language, stating I couldn't buy property or leave the state without written consent from my "Master."-- at which point my future supervisor repeated several times they NEVER enforce that and don't even care.

In my world it isn't history, it's a diploma worth about $5 per hour more. --Lynn Hartwig, Milwaukee WI

I also feel that journeyman and tradesperson are not the same thing. The world journeyman might refer to the mostly medeval tradition of "gradueted" apprentices, to go travelling or journeying, in order to gather experience. To day the only rememberance of this traditon is a guild(?) of german carpenters that wear traditional clothes and travel around for a set period of time after graduation from their master.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.197.212.163 (talk • contribs) 08:28, 22 January 2006

• It took me a while to work out why on earth you'd want to merge the two articles, until I realised that "tradesman" has a completely different meaning in US English and British English. This should be taken into account if the articles are merged:

(OALD dictionary:

"trades•man noun (pl. -men /mn/)

1 a person whose job involves going to houses to sell or deliver goods

2 (especially BrE) a person who sells goods, especially in a shop/store shopkeeper

3 (especially NAmE) a skilled person, especially one who makes things by hand

Saint|swithin 13:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

• Ah! This debate suddenly makes sense! Bluewave 08:56, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

• It would make more sense to me to split the article between Guild and Tradesman. OrangUtanUK 15:57, 22-May-2006 (UTC)

Here in California, USA a tradesman is an individual involved in a trade, such as a carpenter, mason, HVAC tech, etc. A journeyman is a tradesman who has become highly skilled in the trade after serving an apprenticeship. I receive my information from being certified by the state of California as a journeyman tool and die maker.

I would look into more detail about the possibility of a tradesman being a person who could trade a specialized service for other goods. As where a journeyman is the same type of individual who has traveled and learned many aspects of the craft. The idea of a journeyman is not to stay in one spot (or position) and learn a single detail, but to travel and learn many. I vote against a merge as the two have historical meaning that seperat the two. I have never heard of a 'tradesperson' so if the term is new for gender reasons, it should be noted as such for NPOV. I already forgot 04:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• Don't merge: Distinctly seperate meanings to me. Considering the hstorical usage of the term journeyman, regional usage could differ greatly. Considering the above replies and the 6 months since the merge was suggested, I feel that the debate has run it's course. I'll close it now. — Graibeard ^(talk) 11:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

British English

Could editors who believe the phrase is used differently in the U.K. provide references. Also, would they review this website that clearly demonstrates the term is used in the same manner in the U.K. [1]. Thanks, Addhoc 23:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The OED is usually the definitive reference on the different regional variants of English. I'll check next time I'm in a library. My own (rather old) Concise Oxford gives "Tradesman: person engaged in trade, esp. shopkeeper". Chambers gives "Tradesman: a shopkeeper; a craftsman; a mechanic". English houses of the upper classes used to have (and probably still do) a "tradesman's entrance" where deliveries were received. It used to be quite common to see signs on gates into people's gardens saying "No Tradesmen - No Hawkers" (meaning "no door to door salesman"): Googling for this phrase throws up at least one example. I think British English includes the several meanings of tradesman: one engaged in a trade (a craftsman) or one engaged in trade (a shopkeeper, salesman or delivery person). Bluewave 08:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply and I agree with your conclusion. In my understanding the 'other' use of tradesman is slightly old fashioned, in the same way that 'hawker' is no longer in everyday use. Addhoc 13:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite

I've just re-written the page, as I felt it gave the impression that trades were entirely confined to construction. Perhaps my submission features too heavily on matters already described in Apprenticeship and Guild. I've briefly gone into history, which should probably include a bit more detail (citations of early evidence of formal trade training, etc.) or perhaps be moved to a new page.

Also, while I've added a few trades to the list on the bottom of the page, it still needs expanding.

Yizzik 26th May, 2005

Freaky picture

Please replace that awful, freakishly colorized and cartoonish picture with a modern collage shows multiples types of tradesworkers. Commons has to have plenty of pics that can be used for that. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖ^⊝כ^⊙þ Contrib. 00:26, 16 January 2013 (UTC)