Wikipedia

Talk:Transportation in South Florida

(Redirected from Talk:Transportation in Miami)
Latest comment: 6 years ago by InternetArchiveBot in topic External links modified
Learn more about this page
Former featured article candidateTransportation in South Florida is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
October 28, 2011Good article nomineeNot listed
December 11, 2011Good article nomineeNot listed
November 27, 2014Featured article candidateNot promoted
June 20, 2015Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former featured article candidate

GA Review

edit
Latest comment: 13 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Transportation in Miami/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Imzadi1979 (talk · contribs) 02:56, 28 October 2011 (UTC)Reply

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

The following three links are to disambiguation pages, and should be changed to direct to the most specific applicable entry: Busway, Miami River, Ocean Drive.

  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose):   b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):  
    There are issues detailed below with the quality of the writing. There is information in the lead of the article that I didn't see repeated elsewhere.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references):   b (citations to reliable sources):   c (OR):  
    Several of the sources used are primary sources, and they should be easily replaceable with secondary sources from the press in the area. Many sections of the article are totally uncited; there are several cases where statistics have no citation given, as well there are descriptions given that are opinions that will also need citations. Statistics and opinions are two items that the GA criteria specifically require have citations.
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects):   b (focused):  
    Some further focus could be made to refine and distill/summarize some parts of the article, especially since sections are summaries of other articles, but overall, the article is fine.
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:  
    Opinions and commentary are given without sources. If backed up to reputable sources qualified to draw those conclusions, then this would be neutral.
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:  
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):   b (appropriate use with suitable captions):  
    File:MDT_Extension.svg should have a source for the information used to generate the map. File:MiamiMetroBus.jpg should have a caption (once the infobox is pulled)
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:  
    Overall, this article represents significant work by a single editor, however, the deficiencies need to be rectified before it can be listed as a Good Article. It is my opinion that the level of research necessary will take longer than the standard 7-day hold period, so I'm failing the article. The article can be renominated after these issues are addressed.

Several of my comments below deal with issues that are technically not part of the GA criteria, however, applying things like proper dash usage earlier in your writing plans means less work for future WP:FAC nominations. The end result of this review did not hinge on those extra comments, but they are still provided to detail all of the various issues facing this article at this time.

Lead
  • The second paragraph has uncited statistics; I didn't see these repeated in the body of the article, which is against WP:LEAD. As stats, they need citations. While you're at that, please update for the 2010 census since the 2000 numbers are now out of date.
  • The stat on population per square mile should have a conversion to population per km².
  • There are abbreviations given that are never repeated. Why bother the reader with them?
Highways
  • What is an "Intestate style highway"? I think you mean that the area has several freeways.
  • The article should link to Interstate 95 in Florida, U.S. Route 1 in Florida, etc. Even if the state-detail articles don't exist in a particular case, they will at some point in the future, and the redirects currently exist to point to the state section of the national-detail article on the highway.
  • Constructions similar to "north-south" should be "north–south" using an en dash.
  • "tri county" should be hyphenated. In this case, tri and county are jointly modifying what kind of area it is.
  • A citation is needed for the claim of "two busiest roads in South Florida"
  • Highway abbreviations are used very inconsistently. A good writing practice is that each time you mention a highway for each "class" (Interstate, US Highway, State Road, County Road) then spell the name out in full and include the abbreviation in parentheses afterwards. Personally, once the abbreviation convention is given, I only use abbreviations for consistency and good article flow. (That applies to more than highway designations; once FDOT's abbreviation is given, why spend the time to type out "Florida Department of Transportation" again?)
  • Why is I-75 not mentioned? I know that it ends in Hialeah, but that's a city in Miami-Dade County. (I assume that you've focused the scope of the article to the City of Miami, but yet the first sentence talks about "Greater Miami".)
  • Decades are consistently mis-formatted. It should be "1960s" (no apostrophe), and the "19" should not be dropped. The construction "1960's" is the possessive form of 1960, and indicates "ownership" or a connection to a single year, not the whole decade.
  • The proper name would be "State Road 112", not "Florida Route 112"; they are State Roads, not State Routes as well.
  • "The Dolphin Expressway, Airport Expressway, Don Shula Expressway, Gratigny Parkway and Snapper Creek Expressway are ..." would flow better as "The Dolphin, Airport, Don Shula, and Snapper Creek expressways and the Gratigny Parkway are ..." to drop the repetition of the word "expressway".
Tolls
  • A citation is needed for the toll amounts. Basically, any time you list a number like that, give a footnote.
Other road
  • "The grid throughout most of Miami-Dade County with the exception of a few cities is a simple axis-oriented ..." has missing comma. It should be: "The grid throughout most of Miami-Dade County, with the exception of a few cities, is a simple axis-oriented ..." to set off the exception part.

""north/south divisor" has two issues: the slash should be an en dash and the word "divisor". This isn't math class, so the correct word is "divider"; a "divisor" is part of a fraction.

  • Is "Miami Grid" a proper noun? If in doubt, assume it isn't and drop the cap on "grid".
  • What's "MIA"? I know from later on in the article that it's Miami International Airport, but since this is the first reference, it should be specified. In the lead, you can change the parenthetical that lists the airport name to "(Miami International Airport, MIA)" to resolve this.
  • A personal preference, but I would spell out "Avenue", "Street" and the like. The AP Stylebook says to only abbreviate that part of a street name in an address, but not when mentioning the street along. (So "Main Street", but "123 Main St.") Remember too, these abbreviations have other possible meanings, and readers aren't all native English speakers.
  • Since the causeways are in a table, maybe this bulleted list could be converted to one as well for consistency of presentation?
  • The causeways stuff would be better served by having its own subheading.
  • "The Venetian Causeway and MacArthur Causeway connect ..." would read better as "The Venetian and MacArthur causeways connect ..." (Don't include the lowercase common word in a wikilink though.)
Taxis
  • Citations for fares. Again, quoted statistics need to be referenced.
  • The measurements here need converted values in metric given. Not all of our readers are American.
Vehicle dependency
  • Again, citations for statistics.
  • You mention a study. Cite it, please.
  • Fix "1970s".
  • "For example, both state governors Jeb Bush and Rick Scott denied funding for an intercity high-speed rail system in Florida." Citation needed for this claim. Also, the word "state" is superfluous and unneeded.
  • "This, along with a more recent federal investigation and takeover in 2011 has led to Miami- Dade Transit's perception as an unreliable organization." By whom? Says who? Citations needed.
  • "14 story" should be "14-story". This is a compound adjective describing the building.
Air
  • "One of the busiest international airports" citation need for this claim.
MIA Mover
  • "MIA Mover opened on September 9, 2011 and is 1.27 miles long ..." You need a comma after 2011 and a conversion for the length measurement. Ditto the speed in the next sentence.
AirportLink (Metrorail)
  • "It consists of a 2.4 mile elevated line" should be "It consists of a 2.4-mile (3.9 km) elevated line"
  • Something to remember, the {{main}} tag doesn't mean this article doesn't need citations for information summarized from another article. Even if it's summarized from the main article, and cited there, it needs to be cited here if it's being repeated.
Sea
  • "six lane bridge" should be "six-lane bridge".
  • The costs and dates need citations
Public transportation
  • Can this be broken up and recombined a little bit? You have stuff about the rail connections related to the airport under the Air heading. There is also subsections of a subsection of this section. How about reshuffling stuff to pull all of the rail items in one heading. put all of the bus stuff in another. This would reflect the separation by transportation modes reflected in having highways, sea, and air separate.
  • "...metros such as Boston and Washington DC which ..." there is a comma missing after DC. In this case, the DC abbreviation is serving the same function as a state name in a construction like "Grand Rapids, Michigan" or "Grand Rapids, MI", and needs to be followed by a comma unless it is at the end of a sentence, etc.
  • Later down that paragraph, there are distances without conversions, and more 2000 census information that should be updated for 2010 data.
  • "single 22.4 mile line," should be "single 22.4-mile (36.0 km) line,". Check the rest of the section for similar measurements lacking conversions and measurements serving as an adjective in front of the item being described, which need to be hyphenated.
  • "the old cash-/token-based system" reads better as "the old cash- or token-based system", and it eliminates the slash per the MOS.
  • "Since the system launch on October 1, 2009, all passengers utilizing Metrorail must use either an EASY Card or EASY Ticket to enter stations." Per the MOS, we don't use boldface for emphasis; rather italics are used instead.
  • "16 of the 22 stations have .." avoid starting a sentence with a number since you really should spell the word out.
  • "The stops that don't are ..." avoid the contraction if possible.
  • The level of specificity here needs citations for the times and prices, since these are all statistics.
Metromover
  • "and 22 stations in the central business district" OK, you defined the CBD abbreviation in the lead, yet you didn't use it here. Second, the "22 stations" is a counted or measured value. There should be a non-breaking space ( ) used between the number and the "unit" of that value so that a line won't break between them. (This is the first time I ran into this on my screen, but it means you haven't done that in the article and should. Using {{convert}} for converting and formatting measurements will apply that formatting for you, but in counted values that use numerical formatting, you have to do it manually. "Two cars" wouldn't need the non-breaking space because the number is spelled as a word.
  • "the 25 cent fare" needs a hyphen since the price is a compound adjective.
  • Something I noticed in the two rail maps is that not all of the highways have their highway markers used in the map diagram. I would either put them there for all highway crossings, or none of them for consistency. You can use either {{jct}} (ask if you need help) or manually format the graphics. If done manually, the |alt=|link= coding should be added to conform with WP:ALT (which the jct template will do for you.)
Metrobus
  • It looks like you copied over the lead from the article, but you also copied over the boldfacing. That needs to be dropped since we only use boldface text for the subject of the article in the lead, and this article isn't about the Metrobus.
  • You probably should drop the infobox, but use the photo directly.
  • "(No 24 hour Hialeah service)" should be "(No 24-hour Hialeah service)". Again, compound adjective.
  • Spell out "and" instead of using the ampersand "&".
  • More statistics here that need citations.
South Miami-Dade Busway
  • "The South Miami-Dade Busway (originally the South Dade Busway) began operating on February 3, 1997 and" drop the bold and the old name, add a comma after the year; the full article can list the old name.
  • "runs parallel to US1/ S Dixie Highway," You never introduced that US 1 (ideally you're using a non-breaking space between the US and the 1) is the abbreviation for US Route 1. I would put the street name in parentheses instead of after a slash as well.
  • "Park & Ride lots" spell out the "and".
Routes that use the Busway
  • Can this be summarized into a table or converted into prose?
Busway vs. rail controversy
  • Now you're using "US-1" for the abberviation... consistency, please!
  • "the Busway runs as far as 2 blocks", spell out even numbers under 10, so "two blocks".
Rail
  • "However, Florida governor Rick Scott" the state name is unneeded, and as a title in front of a name, "governor" should be capitalized.
Tri-Rail
  • "Tri-Rail is a 70.9 mile, 18 station commuter rail train system," should be "Tri-Rail is a 70.9-mile (114.1 km), 18-station commuter rail train system,"
  • This whole section is devoid of citations, yet we have statistics and opinions given.
Amtrak
  • Can you combine the second short one-sentence paragraph into the first one?
Bicycling
  • "In 2010, Miami was ranked No.44 most bike-friendly city" spell out the word "number"; that abbreviation is not readily recognizable to all readers of English.
Walkability
  • "A 2011 survey of the largest cities in the United States by walkscore.com determined the City of Miami to be ranked eighth in terms of walkability." Unless you're referring to the city government, I wouldn't capitalize "city".
MDT Orange Line (Metrorail)
  • "Broward/Dade county" that slash should be an en dash. (Slashes indicate "or", while a dash indicates a range or opposition, separation.)
FEC Tri-Rail alignment
  • "This is the proposal to move Tri-Rail to the more easterly Florida East Coast Railway freight line. This would bring it closer to people and boost its ridership, as well as bring it straight into Downtown Miami, terminating at the Government Center transit hub." This needs to be reworded since it is relying on the reader to read the heading to know what "this" is.
References
  • For a topic specific to the US, Month DD, YYYY dates should be used consistently in the references.
  • Journals, newspapers, etc. should be in italics.
  • Authors should all be in Last, First format.
  • Maps should use {{cite map}} for formatting.
  • Footnotes 12 and 13 are bare URLs. Can we have a full citation?
  • Footnote 20 should be redone as a news/journal citation.
  • Footnote 22 needs a full citation. It's published by WSVN-TV, yet we aren't given the station's location, any author/reporter name, publication date etc.
  • Some of these are primary sources, and should be replaceable with secondary sources where possible.
edit

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel Christensen (talk • contribs) 14:12, October 30, 2011‎

Needed

edit

A picture of the transit village buildings at 701 NW 1st Court because it is the home of Dade Transit itself, is new, is located at the Overtown Metrorail station, yet still has an awkwardly large and sprawling parking garage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel Christensen (talk • contribs) 16:05, October 31, 2011

Move

edit
Latest comment: 12 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

To Transportation in Miami, South Florida, because the scope is beyond just Dade County, let alone just the city. Daniel Christensen (talk) 14:21, 6 November 2011 (UTC)Reply

Since you are the only contributor, you know best. You have to decide whether the extent covers Transportation in Miami, Transportation in Miami-Dade County or probably Transportation in South Florida. Not "Transportation in Miami, South Florida" because that still just means Miami. Martin Morin (talk) 15:45, 6 November 2011 (UTC)Reply

Overview / History

edit
Latest comment: 9 years ago9 comments2 people in discussion

An overview section should be added at the top to sum up points and give a sort of "straight dope". Additionally, in at least one place it should go into more depth what it mentions in the lead, which is that one problem with pubic transit expansions is the high cost of procuring the private right of way in which to build it. The county got a relatively low price acquiring about half of the original Metrorail right-of-way from the previous railroad. Additionally, the rest of the guideways including the new AirportLink awkwardly meander over existing roadways, which is not always feasible due to space and engineering constraints (high in Florida where most infrastructure is as basic and whitewashed as possible). Let alone the difficulty of premium below grade transit anywhere in the three counties due to soft ground and elevation that rarely surpasses 10 feet (3 m). B137 (talk) 07:59, 14 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

A history section could/should also be added as well as the region was practically built around Henry Flagler's railroad, and the way the land is tracted out in fairly uniform blocks is historical, as well as the boom and bust nature of things. The extensive electric catenary streetcar/interurban system Miami had is almost lost in time. It has surprisingly little coverage anywhere, let alone on the project. History should go at the end if anything to fill in background for the in depth reader. Overview idea should probably be scrapped.

To do

edit

Update Metrorail section. Expand stuff related to other two counties i.e. FTL airport connections. AFAIK: Unify ref syntax. Dab "miami/greater miami/miami dade/region/area etc", impact fees. UDB and its controversial "updates" should be added to the politics section. Could also mention high number of Tri-Rail "accidents" ins. fraud. Vaguely heard this mentioned once, cannot find, it's robably not true as this would be borderline domestic terrorism. Should be a Geography section dealing with hurricanes, weak bedrock; Not really that weak, New York just abnormally strong. UDB etc. Florida political map full PDF

[1]

  1. ^ jdsklfj

@Imzadi1979: What do you think of the prose overall; I'm assuming you've read the article as you've now helped with it more significantly. B137 (talk) 04:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

BTW that most recent CBS 4 ref was found in a free paper circulated by them, I looked for it online to find a date. See: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7500/15949254602_3405a627c9_b.jpg B137 (talk) 04:54, 5 December 2014 (UTC)Reply
I haven't re-read the prose in a while. I might get to that some day, but my interests aren't in the prose at the moment. Rather I've been interested in your sourcing. As for that reference, you linked to the online version of the article hosted on their website, so it should be cited as such. That is the first time I've ever seen a TV station actually print a publication like that, but unless they named their website CBS4 Newspaper, a citation to the online version shouldn't be using that publication name. Some TV stations have given their websites with a distinctive name. WLUC-TV has Upper Michigan's Source and WPBM-TV/WTOM-TV has Up North Live, but in most cases their websites just repeat the station's call letters (the standard method for citing TV stations), or some form of branding like "CBS4", which isn't a website name and I would consider like a slogan unfit for inclusion as a citation.
Just a side note: this edit didn't, and couldn't ping me. You have to insert the ping and a signature in the same edit. All {{ping}} does is insert a link to an editor's user page prefaced with "@", and the analogous {{ul}} will do the same without the "@". (The ping template can actually link multiple user names in a single string as well.) If the server sees you enter a new link to a user's page in the same edit where you sign the comments, it will issue the ping through the notification system. If the two things aren't in the same edit, it ignores it. That's intentional so that moving talk page threads to an archive, or reshuffling the order around will not give out a ping. Imzadi 1979 → 07:33, 5 December 2014 (UTC)Reply
@Imzadi1979: Yes it is interesting. I have never seen this paper before. I found it in the free publication rack at the supermarket. To say the least, I would compare it to the Miami New Times, the cover was a bit sensationalist. However, it uses "real" articles but note that the copy is for December 2014, but the article I referenced was dated online as October 2014. I'm guessing they just circulate old stories for free through this paper.
Yeah I somehow had a feeling that ping did not work, but assume you are watching this page. In case it was only coincidence, I have added a ping to this post.
As for a full citation for the 1984 expansion study, I have done searches and cannot find much information on this source, though it is a large, technical, and professional publication. I did find it referenced in this PDF of a newer study on page 10 about 2/3 of the way down the page: http://miamidadempo.org/library/studies/transit-corridors-transitional-analysis-identification-collection-and-review-of-previous-work-1992-07.pdf Even the library catalog does not give OCLC, it is in a special area of Government Publications is the best it can offer, after location publisher is given as "The Division"
This study (the one linked) brings up another pretty big point that I already had a feeling was inaccurate; it states that the Metromover opened in 1989, not 1986. In spoken dialog I believe I have heard the year 1988 mentioned as well for an opening date. B137 (talk) 17:49, 5 December 2014 (UTC)Reply

Reference procurement

edit
  • http://www.census.gov/prod/1/gen/pio/cay961a2.pdf this pins down one last statistic or fact that it has been hard to say, and that is the percentage of people using public transport in the city or the area. This is hard than simply taking transit numbers comparing it to the population because some people are visitors. anyway it puts the number at 12.9% where the article states 14 or 15: however this number is from 1990 and ridership has gone up a bit more especially by percentage than the population has. B137 (talk) 06:08, 29 March 2015 (UTC)Reply
At least the 4% statistic now has a more solid basis; Cape Coral-Fort Myers has longest commute in Florida this article states SF tying Gainesville, there is just a small chance it is a circular reference, though that is doubted since this is a highly statistical article using clear sources. I believe in one of the reviews the 4 and 17 percent statistics were specifically mentioned as lacking a source as well as a mention later in the article. B137 (talk) 22:23, 28 June 2015 (UTC)Reply

Dec 2015

edit

from web lost but found:

  • url=http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/12/21/the-siege-of-miami |title=The Siege of Miami |author=Elizabeth Kolbert| date=December 21, 2015 |work=New Yorker |accessdate=December 15, 2015 aka Miami is Flooding |quote1=Of all the world’s cities, Miami ranks second in terms of assets vulnerable to rising seas quote2=Talking about climate change in the Everglades this past Earth Day, President Obama said, “Nowhere is it going to have a bigger impact than here in South Florida.” |quote3=Researchers at Florida Atlantic University have found that with just six more inches of sea-level rise the district will lose almost half its flood-control capacity. Meanwhile, what’s known as the saltwater front is advancing. One city—Hallandale Beach, just north of Miami—has already had to close most of its drinking wells, because the water is too salty. Many other cities are worried that they will have to do the same.

16% 90 minutes

from tab

  • url=http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060016090 |title=Miami Beach 'rising' to challenge of encroaching seas |work=ClimateWire |publisher=E&E Publishing |first=Manon |last=Verchot |date=April 1, 2015 |accessdate=December 15, 2015 |quote= ...the city may raise roads and sidewalks by 1.5 to 2 feet along the west side that faces the Biscayne Bay.
  • url=http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/11/miami-drowning-climate-change-deniers-sea-levels-rising |title=Miami, the great world city, is drowning while the powers that be look away |work=The Guardian |date=July 11, 2014 |first=Robin |last=McKie |location=Miami |accessdate=December 15, 2015|quote=Low-lying south Florida, at the front line of climate change in the US, will be swallowed as sea levels rise. |quote=Thus one of the great cities of the world faces obliteration in the coming decades. "It is over for south Florida. It is as simple as that.

No church in the wild

edit
Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

What's so interesting about writing about a subject like this, and further trying to make it comprehensive, up to date as well as futureproof, is that it's literally the modern day wild west, growing and changing so fast, with nothing set in stone and no certainty of what the future holds. When a project is "cancelled" it usually just means it's paused for a few years. A term I came up with for places like Miami, Sunny Isles Beach, North Bay Village, etc is accidentally urban. They are/were literally the posterchildren of suburbia and a closed-in lifestyle, with Sunny Isles Beach having many fortress-like high security towers, many literally filled with high level literally Russian (Little Moscow not just a nickname) figures who look for security, privacy, and a place to invest. But it went so far with the massive towers which, despite their luxury, were inevitably a form a dense development regardless of whether that was the intent, and now you see "Florida's Riviera" with bustling streets and sidewalks, as well as some unfortunate events like that kid who got hit skateboarding in the driveway of his condo. Some of these places now have population densities well over 20,000 per sq mi (over a small area). Yesterday I was adding refs about how the westbound tolls on two expressways had not been implemented though I knew they have been working on it; today the news breaks that not are they opening at midnight, there will be no way to evade them like thousands do on the eastbound tolls, exiting at 27th Avenue. My 2¢ B137 (talk) 04:34, 15 November 2014 (UTC)Reply

Supplemental bibliography

edit
Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Sources that may be added to the article for supplemental reading.

  • Simpson & Curtin Transportation Engineers (December 1969). 1969 Transit Use (Report). Dade County Department of Traffic and Transportation.


  • Public Transit Master Plan (Report). Simpson & Curtin Transportation Engineers. January 1969. from this one:

page 54: Dade county located over highly permeable limestone, tunneling difficult to unfeasible. Criteria for evaluation including Short turning ability to weave buildings, roads.

^by Simpson & Curtin Transportation Engineers "prepared for" DCDofT&T. Unclear if S&C or Dade County published it, limited copies printed. No apparent ISBN for these studies.


Environmental Impact Studies from 1978, not sure if contact should be listed as editor/author and if the entire title should be used or both publishers listed:


Wealth of new books found at FIU:

edit
  • Year 2005 Metro-Dade Transportation Plan 1984 Update. Vol. 1. Metropolitan Planning Organization. September 1984.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: year (link)
  • Transportation System Management Element 1980 Update. Metropolitan Planning Organization for the Miami Urbanized Area. December 1980.

Note: very light duty; not technical

  • Metro Transit Expansion Study. Metro-Dade Transportation Administration. January 1984.


HistoryMiami

edit

Draft milestone 8 report final system plan. Kaiser engineers. June 1975.

49 Coral gables against. Page 11-16

Basically to no one's surprise Coral Gables spoke out against the project saying it would not be helpful to urban issues. Sentiment continues to this day despite popular street trolley that connects to the rail, which they tout as removing traffic and easing parking. They are against a sensible, bite-sized expansion of Metrorail from the physical track terminus pointing south at MIA down Douglas Road to the current line. It would have to be buried for there to even be a chance. B137 (talk) 22:47, 2 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

Feedback

edit
Latest comment: 9 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion

I saw this in the Good Articles nominations and decided to have a look. I'll admit that I only skimmed through the article and didn't read all of the prose, but in my opinion this article needs some work before it can be a good article. I've fixed a couple issues with the "Further"/"Main article" templates, but refrained from placing some cleanup templates so that I don't kill the GAN.

Here's a few issues I see:

  • Article length — The article is now at 73kb "readable prose size". Per Wikipedia:Article size, articles over 60kb "Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading material)". In this case, I don't think the topic justifies the added length as it is possible to split out an article or two from this article. In my opinion, Public transportation in South Florida should be created to provide an overview of the systems and history (including future) of public transport in the region.
I see a lot of statements that aren't really necessary in this article or sections which could be worded more concisely. Examples:
  • "All Palm Tran buses have bicycle racks on the front, capable of holding two bikes." (in the Palm Tran section)
  • "The elongated and sprawled layout of the South Florida metropolitan area complicates the process of designing practical mass transit systems that serve the entire region, in contrast to more overall circular metros such as Boston and Washington, D.C., which use traditional radii spurs extending from a central location for their public transit and highway systems. The latter often use outer loops, such as the Capital Beltway, known as the spoke-hub distribution paradigm." (I think the part in italics is unnecessary and should be more general example like "in contrast to more circular shaped metro areas where a hub-and-spoke system can efficiently route passengers to their destination.")
  • "Additionally, many motorists are acquitted or receive minor punishments for crimes such as DUI vehicular manslaughter and other reckless driving incidents." (Walkability section...this is something common in the US but this seems like WP:Original research...the source only lists a couple cases of at-fault drivers being acquited...it's quite a stretch to use that article to support this claim)
  • "Many were disappointed in Scott's vehement denial of the money. 26 Florida senators from both political parties signed a letter to United States Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood encouraging him to ignore Scott's decision, and even former governor Jeb Bush, who was against the previous high-speed rail proposal, was surprised by Scott's actions." (Florida high-speed rail section...to be honest, I'm one of the people very unhappy with that move, but these quoted sentences aren't necessary and aren't really written in a neutral tone...the paragraph should just go from the preceding statement to the ending "The money was ultimately directed to other states and the plan killed.")
  • Unsourced content — There are some sections that are unsourced. I realize that these are summaries and that the content is sourced in the linked articles, but it still needs a source on this article. In addition to the several sections listed below, there are many unsourced statements and I see many paragraphs where the first half is sourced but the latter half isn't. That makes me wonder whether content in parts of paragraphs that just have a source at the end are actually verified by those sources. These sections are completely or largely unsourced:
    • Causeways
    • Miami International Airport (including the "Surface transportation infrastructure")
    • PortMiami
    • Port Everglades
    • Stations (subsection of Metromover)
    • Broward County Transit
Examples of unsourced claims or controversial statements that need a source:
  • "With the appropriate bus transfers, one can travel all the way from Key West to Jupiter entirely on public-transit buses." (Metrobus section)
  • "City planners and residents alike have commented that rather than dismantling the former Florida East Coast Railroad line for the busway, the Metrorail system could have been extended southward over the railway line." (Busway vs. rail controversy section)
  • Omissions — A couple of omissions I see:
    • The air transportation section leaves out general aviation. Kendall-Tamiami Executive Airport (now known as Miami Executive Airport) and Opa-Locka Executive Airport are mentioned, but there are several other smaller airports in the South Florida area.
    • The history section doesn't really discuss highways. Some information on how the expansion of highways in the region has affected its growth/urban sprawl would be useful. A mention/paragraph about how the Miami area became the major cruising hub and the major gateway to the Caribbean and Latin America would also be useful.
    • The Bicycling, Walking, & Transit Oriented Development sections are all about Miami. What about the rest of the South Florida area, is there anything to say about Broward or Palm Beach County communities?

Hopefully, this is valuable feedback. I really didn't come to this article or even start to write this section to completely tear the article apart, but this article needs some work before it's a good article. As mentioned in the beginning, I didn't put any cleanup templates on the article so as not to derail the GAN, but hopefully this feedback can be used to improve the article to that status. AHeneen (talk) 05:33, 17 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for your input. Yes that bit about travelling by bus from Key West to Jupiter was definitely copied out of a source article, not something I added; it is also WP:SYNTH. I can assure you that as bad as public transit is in Florida, interplanetary transit is even worse :P. As for article length, wow this monster comes rearing its head again. I thought that was a mostly outdated standard. I remember when it used to be something like 100 kB total size, I guess due to the bias of heaving coding on some pages it's been modified to refer to prose size only. Still, I thought it was more of a guideline than anything. Some articles, whether considered "good" or not, definitely should not be that long. For example, a book-length article could be written on "Dog" given the vast amount of publication on that subject, but it would be inappropriate. But this type of article is almost a marriage between a list and a prose article that necessitates inclusion of much detail as a list, but detail given as prose, which inherently gets lengthy.
Omissions: More can easily be added; as for the smaller airports, not much more than a mention should be added I would say, as there is not much that makes the ones in the area unique that I know of. As far as a heavy leaning to miami/dade county, that is going to happen naturally as the other counties are not very unique from any other place in Florida (though good luck finding a good source to state this); standard, wide roads with moderate traffic, bike lanes added on arterials not out of need but rather due to surplus tarmac, modern but standard intersections with well-engineered and timed lights based on real life and real time conditions. I-595 is somewhat notable due to the reverse toll lanes, more could be added about that. As far as source omissions I see that yes three sections are totally unsourced, that can be fixed, but they will likely be broad and basic as the info in those sections is broad and basic, such as a source to BCT on the BCT section to show at least that they exist because that's about all the sections state.
Some of the remaining weasel wording can be fixed; if you don't mind I like what you wrote related to the spoke-and-hub bit, if I could just add that. I understand being neutral, but the topic in many ways isn't. Sadly, it is very much a political pundit for better or for worse. B137 (talk) 14:50, 20 January 2015 (UTC)Reply
An book-length article can be written about this subject too. Wikipedia:Article size is a guideline that should be followed. This article should be long, but some content can be split into separate articles, using Wikipedia:Summary style. As mentioned, I think Public transportation in South Florida would be a good section to split, leaving a short overview in this article. That said, I've been working on an article (almost ready for a GAN) where I've been defending the length of the article (currently at 56 kB "readable prose size") when other editors have complained about its length because it is comprehensive. However, not all the information about the topic is contained in one article, and some of the content has been split into separate articles. If that wasn't done the article would probably be about 100kB readable prose size.
About omissions, the scope of the article is about transportation in South Florida. It does not matter if something is "unique" or not. General aviation is moderately important and those airports should be listed, they don't need to be unique. Yes, Miami-Dade County will fill most of the article, but again, the scope of the article is transportation in South Florida. Broward and Palm Beach Counties need to have content even if they aren't unique or different from other parts of Florida. Examples of content that should be added:
  • Amtrak stationsin Hollywood, Ft. Lauderdale, Deerfield Beach, Delray Beach, & West Palm Beach.
  • Taxis and carsharing in the other counties.
Yes, many subjects are political. Just be sure that statements are sourced.AHeneen (talk) 21:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC)Reply
I will address all these issues. I'm not too keen on the article split, but am warming up to it. I agree with your proposed method of splitting if it should be done. B137 (talk) 03:32, 21 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

Some additional feedback: the second paragraph of the lead discusses how this is "one of the most densely populated urban areas in the United States"; the next paragraph says it is "one of the most sprawled out and automobile dependent metropolitan areas in the United States". Which one is it? Barryjjoyce (talk) 05:38, 25 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

Actually it's a strange phenomenon that is a bit hard to explain and may come off as some kind of original research, but the way I would really sum it up is to say that it is all around "medium density", lacking the character many northeastern cities have where there is a defined urban core and perhaps some other urban clusters, but then very low density, single house with a decent sized yard type thing. In Florida, due to high land value and many developments being a large and thorough operation, you get what could be described as endless suburbs but to be honest they are fairly dense as far as suburbs are concerned. Go ahead and look at any street view in the area, especially to the west in the master planned neighborhoods around Doral and you'll see that all the houses are large, square, and taking up most of their plot. Compare this to a street view outside the urban core of Rochester, Savannah (which is even southern), Atlanta (also southern), even Boston. Staten Island is a good comparison of Miami suburbs. In many other metros You get cul-de-sac developments but with literal woodlots between them. I've especially noticed this from the air approaching Atlanta airport. But don't take it from me, take it from the density stats of any Miami fringe such as Doral, Hialeah, Sweetwater, etc etc. Look at Broward districts as well. Even the (fairly large for an unincorporated suburb jurisdiction) 16 sq mile cliched fringe suburb of Kendall, Florida (don't let lead picture of Dadeland fool you), has about the same density as the (fairly compact for an anchor city) 35 sq mile city proper of Rochester, New York. B137 (talk) 05:54, 25 January 2015 (UTC)Reply
At the end of the day what this amounts to is that the packed in endless suburbs of southern Florida, which also, in addition to having almost all area inside the urban boundary cleared and developed, are known for having little parkland, beat out other metros with more defined planning. B137 (talk) 06:30, 25 January 2015 (UTC)Reply
@Barryjjoyce: @AHeneen:I realize that I sort of shot my own argument in the foot by including Doral, as that is one of the areas which is very much like outlying Atlanta, but I will further by saying that "sprawled out" and "dense" are not necessarily in an inverse relationship. New York is very sprawled out, it has very long commute times for all modes of transport and covers over 300 miles squared, but it is also the American poster child of urban density. Density should almost be relative. Downtowns of many very small towns, villages, and cites in the US, especially older ones with many shoulder to shoulder brick buildings, etc. are considered quite dense and walkable for example, even though by the numbers they may be less dense than many areas considered hopeless suburbs like Kendall. A larger city or urban area needs more density to be considered urban than a smaller one. Also are factors like efficiency. A large city might have a huge building but the elevator commute alone would be longer than my commute to the neighboring store if I lived above the bar in small town, USA. I believe this is why many stats try to exclude smaller municipalities, for example "highest bike commuting among cities with population over 100,000." B137 (talk) 22:48, 30 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

Percent public transport usage

edit
Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The 17% figure for Miami is old and dubious, the 4% figure checks out for MDT, BCT, and PT ridership, and downtown is easy to get a minimum figure for by taking MM direct boardings and dividing by not quite two then using stats for other mode lines that service downtown, but COMiami is hard to figure. Even county would be easier using just MDT figures and subtracting a little for 95 express and broward x-fers, but remember to factor Miami Trolley ridership. Interestingly, factoring just the stations of MM and MR that exist with COM limits, it comes close to that number, but then should be much high for all the bus and recently trolley ridership. B137 (talk) 07:57, 25 November 2015 (UTC)Reply

edit

Reference quotes

edit
Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Something I'm seeing more and more of is quotes added directly into the ghost boxes that pop up when you hover over a footnote number. It's possibly that the daunting task of securely archiving all the online references here may be necessary. Maybe it would be easier and more beneficial to just add the significant quotes from some sources, at least for now.

"...Alex Penelas was pushing a plan to raise funds for a $16 billion public transportation expansion with a penny-on-the-dollar sales tax." - Bet on Norman Braman. MNT note:$16 billion

B137 (talk) 01:57, 3 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

edit
Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 9 external links on Transportation in South Florida. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 03:20, 26 February 2016 (UTC)Reply

edit
Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 5 external links on Transportation in South Florida. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 09:50, 2 March 2016 (UTC)Reply

Seasonal variations

edit
Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

Being a nearly tropical (almost officially tropical given recent trends) location in the continental US, SFL/FL is known for having the "tourist season" in the winter, the opposite of many states and cities, which includes snowbirds, part time residents. For Metromover#Ridership, Metrobus (Miami-Dade County)#Ridership, and Metrorail (Miami-Dade County)#Passenger ridership, the busiest passenger months are generally November, February, March, and October. Traffic dips by April, and December, the other two winter season months. January is a strange outlier, being at the "bottom of the top", and October is technically not quite the winter season (Nov to April). This is noticeable on Google Traffic and other traffic reports. Traffic is markedly less in the summer and even seems to be a bit lower in December as well. Of course a whole week in December classified as regular weekdays is lost to the Christmas and holiday season. B137 (talk) 00:23, 11 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

  • During the peak season, rush hour may extend from 3 to 8 pm, and start at 6 am in south Dade on the Turnpike. Massive widening projects are underway all around, except on I-95 which is 10 years stagnant in Dade and the new express "lane[s]" project in Broward did not bring the road to 12 lanes. Still four thru and one express, vs two express like in Dade. I-95 in Dade is about the most congested stretch of highway, and Broward is catching up. Boca Raton is the only regular tight spot in Palm Beach County, where a new interchange with Spanish River Boulevard and possible widening is underway. Half of the Dolphin got better with widening and the new massive Dolphin-Palmetto Interchange. B137 (talk) 21:24, 24 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

Bus decline, obscure stats

edit

The major bus decline has now finally been reported on several times, including here ( http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article148954014.html )

  • County bus cost $130/hr vs private trolley operator $50/hr estimate (Transpiration America)
  • County living wage of $14.69 minimum paid to private drivers, county is higher with benefits
  • Want to cut 10% of MB budget which is given as $248 million
  • Route 6 and Route 48 cut entirely: 6 is Brickell to C Grove station, 48 is Brickell to Douglas Road
  • 40, 56, 62, 103, 107, 108, 115.117, 136, 183, and 252 would lose stops; 40, 56, 62, C, G, H, 115, 117, 136, 183, and 252 using letters
  • Much more overlap from free trolleys, such as in cut routes

[1]

  1. ^ Douglas Hanks (May 5, 2017). "As transit ridership drops, Miami-Dade wants to cut bus stops and outsource routes". Miami Herald. Retrieved May 5, 2017.
edit
Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Transportation in South Florida. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:29, 21 November 2017 (UTC)Reply

Add topic
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Transportation_in_South_Florida&oldid=1207195790"