Talk:Trump International Golf Club shooting

Move to "Security incidents involving Donald Trump"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

It is clear there won't be any consensus to merge in the immediate future. (non-admin closure) —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 00:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

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With ABC reporting that Trump was not targeted, this article would make more sense in Security incidents involving Donald Trump with similar events Toastertime (talk) 19:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I would argue it belongs in Trump International Golf Club (West Palm Beach). elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 19:16, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

It of course deserves a mention in both, but full-length coverage (which with the information available now is only a few sentences) in my view should only be given in the article about Trump himself. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 19:19, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I created the article from a redirect, but I'm not opposed to moving it back to either target. None of the reports I initially received were indicative of an assassination attempt, though I want to hear information from the sheriff's office first. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 19:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree. This hardly appears notable. TheBritinator (talk) 19:37, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree; as long as the current reporting of there being no casualties and the shots not being targeted directly at Trump holds true this event is no more notable than the other entries in Security incidents involving Donald Trump with no separate articles. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 19:43, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. we might have jumped the gun on this when making this article. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:50, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Wait: We have an entire article about the 2016 Donald Trump Las Vegas rally incident, so there is a chance that this one will survive, depending on what information is released over the next few hours. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 19:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

If information is released then it can be made into a new page, not before. As of right now, this should be a redirect. Di (they-them) (talk) 20:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I just heard on CNN the shots were directed at Trump

Ovioas,wo (talk) 20:06, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

As did I in the last hour, but I still do not believe this warrants an article. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 20:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

NYT reports that the motive is still unclear. Everything is up in the air, it seems. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 20:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Wait. If the reports are true that the shooter shot in the vicinity of Trump, then this will be notable Personisinsterest (talk) 20:29, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - Trump was the target according to CNN which suggests this is another assassination attempt. Not only should this remain a separate article, it should also be renamed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrendonJH (talk • contribs) 20:23, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose/Wait – CNN is now reporting that officials/sources believe that Trump was targeted. Let's wait before considering a merger. If this incident is confirmed to be another assassination attempt, it would merit its own article. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 20:34, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Lets also not jump the gun (unfortunate idiom) proposing deleting the article. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 20:42, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Merge. This is yet again another breaking news article about something that will utterly fail the ten-year test. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 20:58, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Hmm... if it is investigated as an assassination attempt, then it miiiiight be notable. Wait. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 21:42, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Investigations change all the time, just because they say they investigate it as something doesnt mean thats what it is. Thats... what an investigation is. I wouldnt be surprised if the guy didnt even know Trump was at the golf course. Grifspdax (talk) 21:46, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

So he wandered around with an assault rifle and fired it at a golf course which a controversial politician owns just for funsies? Cremastra (talk) 21:51, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

crazy people do crazy stuff all the time, just because someone shoots at the White House or near it doesnt mean they try to assassinate the president Grifspdax (talk) 21:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Trump was not injured during the incident. I’d compare this to Trump’s 2016 Las Vegas rally incident, where someone also attempted to assassinate him - but he was not injured, and thus the title does not allude to the “assassination attempt.” It should thereby be referred to as an incident, not an AA. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 22:03, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose/Wait until there is more information. Swinub★ 20:58, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose The FBI has just said it 'appears to be' an assassination attempt with Trump as the intended target, seems notable Benmanone (talk) 21:01, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

About 21 minutes ago, I added a {{Merge from}} template to Security incidents involving Donald Trump#2024 Trump International Golf Club shooting that matches the {{Merge to}} template at the top of the page for Trump International Golf Club shooting. I assume that it's the norm to create matching uses of these templates. Is that the norm? (Also, is the noun "uses" the preferred term in this context? If not, what is?) Ss0jse (talk) 22:38, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, I’ll say it’s notable to its own, we just need to work on the article name. LuxembourgLover (talk) 23:11, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose/Wait CNN and AP is reporting the FBI is investigating it as an assassination attempt — Preceding unsigned comment added by CharlesViBritannia (talk • contribs) 21:02, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose – The FBI is investigating the incident as an assassination attempt. ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 21:07, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Merge This did not result in any injuries or deaths, and fails the ten-year test. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 21:08, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• Note I have semi protected the page per CTOP/AP. Not taking any side on the question of what to do with the page but will note that we have articles on both the attempts on president Gerald Ford. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:16, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Merge this is a nothing-burger don't make it bigger than it is. Grifspdax (talk) 21:18, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose The FBI confirms this is being investigated as an assassination attempt. Johndavies837 (talk) 21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose and wait since details concerning it are becoming more apparent. 2600:2B00:9639:F100:E0A4:AB32:669E:475F (talk) 21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Wait - This is getting a lot of attention in the press because of Trump being targeted (according to CNN). This will likely deserve it's own article, but we have to wait and see. CountyCountry (talk) 21:22, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose + Wait since this is considered a developing subject. YodaYogaYogurt154 (talk) 21:28, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Merge, this is a routine incident that just so happened to be near Trump. Nobody was injured, and this event does already/will fail WP:NEVENT in the coming days. If I made an article on every time someone's ever heard gunshots, I'd make about a billion articles. Sir MemeGod :D (talk - contribs - created articles) 21:31, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

hard agree. Are we going to make articles for every crime that happens near a presidential candidate from now on? Grifspdax (talk) 21:33, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. This clearly now meets WP:GNG. Bondegezou (talk) 21:33, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: it is too soon to tell with events still unfolding, but it seems the event is getting enough media attention for a standalone article. GMH Melbourne (talk) 21:51, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose/Wait Given the shooter was taken alive I'm almost certain this is going to be developing significantly enough to warrant a standalone article. Kcmastrpc (talk) 21:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

  You can't just predict the future Grifspdax (talk) 21:59, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

  No, but I can predict this proposal has WP:SNOWBALL chance in hell of success. Kcmastrpc (talk) 22:04, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose merge/Wait The matter is being investigated as a potential assassination attempt. We should wait until more facts come to light but regardless I think the incident should have its own article. Keivan.f^Talk 22:18, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

That's what was being reported earlier, but the FBI is now investigating it as a possible assassination attempt. [1] David O. Johnson (talk) 23:22, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• Wait It literally just happened. I don't believe this story will be even remotely memorable in the future but if there is enough detail that comes out that its page can rival the size of the page on the 2016 Las Vegas incident, then I would oppose but otherwise, this story sounds like it will be dead by October. MountainJew6150 (talk) 23:27, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose being treated as an assassination attempt by FBI. Scuba 23:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose as per above this is being treated by the FBI as an assassination attempt. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is clearly more important than just a "security incident." TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose As per above, this is clearly becoming more of a notable event as time goes on, we're seeing the headline in international news (BBC, RTE, etc.) Thief-River-Faller (talk) 00:20, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move to " Second attempted assassination of Donald Trump"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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CNN is now reporting that the FBI is referring to the event as "an assassination attempt". The current title of the article does not accurately reflect what happened. BrendonJH (talk) 20:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Move it to the trash, as it's not notable. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 20:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

agree 100% Grifspdax (talk) 21:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

An attempt on a former United States president’s life is notable, clearly you may have some sort of agenda. WintersOG (talk) 01:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, I have an agenda because I previously thought (and don't anymore) that this article isn't notable. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 05:24, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

This is a very silly thing to say. — Czello ^(music) 04:43, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't even think it's accurate to say it's not notable anymore, so it's double silly. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 05:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Support Associated Press has published a news article that the FBI has confirmed this was “what appears to be an attempted assassination”, meeting WP:REPUTABLE, WP:NEWSORG. https://apnews.com/article/trump-shooting-gunshots-florida-f62f8378d3a8ce7b2e99d6a8fb40aba9 Sypher98 (talk) 22:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Wait, but likely support under a different name, for example, July 2024 Attempted assassination of Donald Trump and September 2024 Attempted assassination of Donald Trump. LuxembourgLover (talk) 23:08, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per Reaper. Jon Ace ^{T C} 23:09, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, but maybe make "Second attempted assassination of Donald Trump" a redirect to this page. People will probably call it the "second attempted assassination", especially since it happened within 2 months of an actual attempt, but I think the current title describes what actually happened better. Tahadagal (talk) 00:32, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Support/Wait - With almost all major news anchors and the FBI labeling it as a assassination attempt I think it’s more then appropriate for the title to be change, but we can still wait as more information comes out. Also the perpetrators article conflicts with the title of this article, with the perpetrators article references this article as a assassination attempt. 47.219.89.18 (talk) 03:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Boldly shutting down this pile-on now. Cremastra (talk) 21:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

@LilianaUwU: See the above discussion. –Gluonz talk contribs 20:56, 15 September 2024 (UTC) just because you're politically hard radical left and dont support him, doesnt mean its not notable. your comment is absolutely outrageously insensitive and inappropriate. Benga502 (talk) 21:04, 15 September 2024 (UTC) @LilianaUwU: Your comment is disgusting. GandalfXLD (talk) 21:06, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Hard radical left trans have every right to express its hate and disdain for Trump, especially on a hard radical left reliably disinformative platform. Sofeshue (talk) 21:26, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Striking per WP:NPA. Sofeshue Do not post anything like that again. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:34, 15 September 2024 (UTC) "Its"? LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 21:27, 15 September 2024 (UTC) I'll have to remember to bring this bit of WP:CIR level editorial incompetence up next time you're hauled before ANI. Marcus Markup (talk) 21:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Who are you three? What's so wrong with my comment about thinking something is not notable that I get piled on? LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 21:27, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Could you please not involve your personal beliefs? Jjbomb (talk) 21:51, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The FBI is investigating what appears to be an attempted assassination. It is not concrete proof that it was, in fact, an attempted assassination. Keep it here, or perhaps merge in coordination with the above discussion, until more information is released. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 21:04, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose – If the incident is in fact determined to be another assassination attempt, I would prefer this article be moved to "Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida" and the Attempted assassination of Donald Trump article be moved to "Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania", in line with the Attempted assassination of Gerald Ford in Sacramento and Attempted assassination of Gerald Ford in San Francisco articles. ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 21:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose This would be insane to do and is completely unprecedented. This is a nothing-burger (not notable). At most, it should be merged with the security incidents article. Grifspdax (talk) 21:21, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 21:26, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, it's not the second. Swinub★ 21:26, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• Delete - This is way too soon and not like the other event which was actually televised and seen by hundreds of people, we don't need an article about this. CNC33 (. . .talk) 21:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support Virtually every outlet I've checked is reporting the shooting as an apparent assassination attempt. AP, MSNBC, CNN, Fox, ABC. Thinking about moving it myself. LJF2019 ^talk 21:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

  You are actively going against the consensus here. Why are you trying to make this bigger than it is? Grifspdax (talk) 21:38, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

  Nothing wrong with saying things against consensus. That's how consensus develops and changes. Cremastra (talk) 21:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• We should move away from having “shooting” in the title as no-one shot at Trump. The only confirmed shooting was by USSS agents at the suspect. Bondegezou (talk) 21:37, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

  I would support a change to “incident”, rather than “shooting”. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 21:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

  Support; maybe we should create a new discussion that proposes a move to that title. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 21:49, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• Strong Support Second assassination attempt in two months against a former president and current nominee for president. This event is both notable and newsworthy. Dr Fell (talk) 21:59, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

  Second This

  [2]https://apnews.com/article/trump-shooting-gunshots-florida-f62f8378d3a8ce7b2e99d6a8fb40aba9 P3ckadizzy (talk) 22:34, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• Wait: let’s wait for some more details to come out before saying this was definitely an assassination attempt. “Incident” would work better, at least for now. Bondegezou (talk) 22:08, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - This is not the second attempt, no more than the July attempt was the first. My count of Security incidents involving Donald Trump lists four attempts (Las Vegas, forklift, and the two ricin attempts) before July 2024, and that list is almost certainly incomplete. There must be a better way to disambiguate this incident from the July attempt, but calling them the "first" and "second" attempts is highly inaccurate. - ZLEA _T\^C 00:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support or move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida. Claims that this event is non-notable deny reality; the same is true of claims that this is not an "attempted assassination" (as it has been described by the FBI and by numerous news outlets). TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Suppport move but I'm not sure about the exact wording. Maybe both articles need to move to include the month; so something like "Attempted assassination of Donald Trump (July)" and "Attempted assassination of Donald Trump (September)". I see the other page has an RM to include the location, so that might do instead. — Czello ^(music) 04:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support My edit was overwritten. Shooter likely politically motivated per latest findings on his social media, also event currently being treated as assassination attempt. Ralphw (talk) 04:48, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Support Reliable sources are calling it an assassination attempt. Given the earlier Pennsylvania attempt, this proposed title is appropriate. JMM12345 (talk) 05:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Deserves a 2nd attempt page

Pretty simple, Trump was the target by a man looking to assassinate him, This is the second incident in 65 days, this deserves its own place as a second assassination attempt 24.187.108.82 (talk) 21:21, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

This is merely your opinion and not a preponderance of the facts, as is required under Wikipedia’s notability guidelines. We need concrete and objective proof that this was in fact an attempted assassination. Furthermore, no one was injured and thus this as a standalone article would fail Wikipedia’s 10-year test. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 21:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

This event already surpasses the guidelines for notability. As expected, the partisans on both sides are out in force attempting to skew how the article on the assassination attempt is framed. Dr Fell (talk) 22:02, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Childish bickering, not needed Swinub★ 22:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Bro, we get it, you're a far-right fox news watcher. Any crime happening near a presidential candidate doesnt deserve an article. Grifspdax (talk) 21:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC) @Grifspdax Discussion here needs to stay focused on the content, not contributors. —C.Fred (talk) 21:39, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Thank you for the constructive reply. Swinub★ 21:39, 15 September 2024 (UTC) But a crime that appears to have targeted a presidential candidate—especially a former president—does possibly deserve an article, and the FBI is investigating the incident as an assassination attempt. ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 21:40, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Ah yes, because clearly, every sketchy event within a 5-mile radius of a former president automatically gets its own Wikipedia page. I’m sure the editors are busy creating articles for every near-miss meteor and mildly inconvenienced pigeon that flew too close to the motorcade. How dare they take the time to, you know, actually wait for evidence and context! Grifspdax (talk) 21:43, 15 September 2024 (UTC) A guy with a scopped AK-47, had kevlar tiles, being a small distance of 300-500 yards and pointing through the fence to where a former president was seems to me as more than sketchy lmao. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 21:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Oh, absolutely, because "seems to me" is the gold standard for Wikipedia entries now. I’m sure the FBI is taking notes on your expert analysis. But hey, while we're at it, should we start a new page for every random guy with suspicious equipment who happens to be within a few football fields of a public figure? "Almost-maybe-could-have-been" is such a catchy article title, don't you think? Grifspdax (talk) 22:02, 15 September 2024 (UTC) The gold standard for Wikipedia is RS coverage and there is clearly plenty of that. RS are treating this as more significant than your description, Grifspdax. Bondegezou (talk) 22:06, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Almost a new low for an editor for me XD. I love your anger, something has pissed you off huh. Please keep political bias out of here, it's not like your achieving much. You had your opinion and I had mind. Anywho, this is more than "sus guy at some nonevent football match" and I think you already know that. Someone also replied to this greatly but I think it was deleted. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 22:12, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Oh, trust me, there’s nothing political about pointing out how Wikipedia works. It’s not about opinions; it’s about verifiable facts and not jumping to conclusions before we actually have them. Sorry if that sounds frustrating, but hey, rules are rules, even when they don’t fit the drama some people might want to stir up. And no, not “pissed off”—just mildly amused by the insistence on turning every incident into a headline. Grifspdax (talk) 22:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Everything I mentioned was said at the press conference. I have jumped no conclusions. Proposing deletion or merge this quick is jumping to conclusions. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 15 September 2024

Trump International Golf Club shooting → ? – The focus of the article is not the shooting (the Secret Service agent shooting at the suspect) but rather the foiled assassination attempt itself. I would suggest a rename to reflect this, such as 2024 Trump International Golf Club incident or Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 21:51, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to “2024 Trump International Golf Club incident”. No one was killed or injured, and there is no concrete or objective proof as to whether or not it was an attempted assassination. Even if was determined to be one, I would still support a move to here as no one was injured. I’d also support a merger with “Security incidents involving Donald Trump”. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 21:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment: I don't think going off of whether someone was injured or not in order to label an incident as an assassination attempt is a solid foundation. For example, no one was injured during the attempted assassinations of Gerald R. Ford in 1975 (the first one) or Cristina Fernández de Kirchner in 2022, yet they are both considered to be assassination attempts. I'd say wait until the FBI or Secret Service deems this to be an assassination attempt or not. PizzaKing13 (¡Hablame!) 🍕👑 22:37, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

It seems the FBI has already characterized the incident as an assassination attempt, as per the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2024/sep/15/donald-trump-shooting-florida-golf-course?CMP=share_btn_url&page=with%3Ablock-66e75a918f082dce7ae34412#block-66e75a918f082dce7ae34412

The FBI called the incident “an attempted assassination of the former president”. The FBI and other law enforcement officials said the suspect had a scope on his rifle, a GoPro camera with which he apparently intended to record footage and a backpack with ceramic tile in it. 2607:FEA8:BEDF:CD00:6148:E3AD:D0EA:3C30 (talk) 23:09, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

ARGENTINA MENTIONED 181.31.2.121 (talk) 12:11, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Wait — we have two moving/merging discussion ongoing above. Let's wait until the investigation concludes or at least till we get a bit more information. Until then, "shooting" is an adequate description. Cremastra (talk) 21:56, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

If any, (would prefer it being merged with security incidents article) it should be referred to as an incident. Calling it an assassination attempt would blow this out of proportion to what it really is and play into the hands of certain ideologues which desperately want Trump to be a martyr which he is not. Grifspdax (talk) 21:58, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Conversely, refusing to call it an assassination attempt also plays into the hands of ideologues who just as desperately do not want Trump to be portrayed as a martyr for self-evident political reasons circa 6 weeks before a presidential election. It's really very simple—the shooter was pointing a loaded AK-47 at Trump, with evident intent to kill, which constitutes an assassination attempt. Downgrading it to an "incident" suggests that somebody stubbed his toe. Selfgyrus (talk) 15:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Support move to Trump International Golf Club incident: In the first title, the year is unnecessary, but the title otherwise is suitable. As for the second, this incident should not be referred to as an assassination attempt in its title, as with the 2016 Donald Trump Las Vegas rally incident, another incident in which Trump was not injured. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 21:59, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:NCE is clear that we should include the year. It's far too early to omit it per the guidance of WP:NOYEAR.. —Locke Cole • t • c 22:09, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, WP:BLPCRIME is another very important reason against a move to a title containing "attempted assassination". –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 16:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support move to “incident”. Having “shooting” in the title is misleading and should be removed. Bondegezou (talk) 22:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Strongly Support - Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach is the most accurate way of describing this event. BrendonJH (talk) 22:07, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I’d disagree. Trump’s 2016 Las Vegas rally incident illustrates this well. Someone tried to assassinate him at that rally, and yet it isn’t described as an “assassination” but an “incident”. Trump was not harmed or injured. Neither was anyone else. Therefore it should not called an “assassination attempt”, and instead an “incident”. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 22:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

While I do agree with you to some extent, I don't remember the Las Vegas attempt being described as an assassination attempt.

This current event is actively being described with such language.

Another notable difference I think is the fact that this seems to be premeditated event with the assassin hiding in the bushes waiting to ambush Trump, while the Las Vegas event was just a guy grabbing a guards gun.

What do you think? BrendonJH (talk) 22:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

In the 2016 incident, the man behind it could not legally rent or buy a firearm, therefore his attempt to grab a guard’s gun. I’d say that while it may not have been premeditated to the point as illustrated today, it was premeditated to an extent. He had the intent to kill, yet did not have the means to (hence his attempt to grab the gun). Additionally, to your point of coverage of the incident, upon looking at past coverage, the press described it as a “plot to kill Trump” (the very definition of an assassination attempt). 1 2 3 4 --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 22:26, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Somone failing to grab a police officer's gun then being detained is not the same as secret service agents shoting at a suspect with a gun aimed at the same area as Trump. LuxembourgLover (talk) 23:23, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

See my reply. Also, there is no evidence yet to support that the man had actually planned to assassinate Trump. As of right now, we just know that there was a man with a gun and a GoPro who was shot at by a Secret Service agent. We don’t even know if the man shot the gun at all. I would like to see people exercise WP:NOR. This is all circumstantial evidence at best. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 23:34, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to 2024 Trump International Golf Club incident per WP:NCE. It's not clear that the alleged gunman even fired their weapon, and it sounds like the only shooting that occurred was a Secret Service agent shooting at the person carrying a rifle. —Locke Cole • t • c 22:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• Wait. The current title is fine there is no reason for a move at this point. If the media starts referring to this and covering it like a foiled assasination attempt, we should move the article to reflect that. If that doesn't happen, 2024 Trump International Golf Club incident is probably a preferred title. Esolo5002 (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to Second attempted assassination of Donald Trump. They may be investigating it now, but we all know it was an assassination attempt. SpringField23402 (talk) 22:22, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Second this. Others in this topic are purposely trying to manipulate the language to fit their personal sense of comfort around it. The FBI says it was......

[3]https://apnews.com/article/trump-shooting-gunshots-florida-f62f8378d3a8ce7b2e99d6a8fb40aba9 P3ckadizzy (talk) 22:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

we all know it was an assassination attempt Cool, now what do our sources know? Because right now, they only know that someone with a rifle was on the golf club grounds, apparently playing golf, and was shot at by a Secret Service agent. Also, WP:NOR. —Locke Cole • t • c 22:32, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

The general consensus of most sources Wikipedia deems reliable is that the FBI are investigating a potential assassination. See: NBC, BBC, CNN coverage. FBI have released a statement affirming the same. 82.33.197.25 (talk) 22:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

A “potential” assassination, you say. We should wait for the evidence and objective proof to make a final determination. For now, we should label this event an “incident” and not an “assassination attempt”, per my above comments. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 22:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:33, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Support - This is the official term being used. BrendonJH (talk) 22:41, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

It was immediately obvious that the one in Pennsylvania was an assassination attempt too, but that wasn't moved until the FBI made it officially official and all. Benpiano800 (talk) 17:43, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong support. PlanetDeadwing (talk) 13:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to match similar attempt. At present the FBI are investigating as a potential assassination. As they’re publicly saying as such it should be reflected here. This can be updated at a future date if FBI drop assassination claim. 82.33.197.25 (talk) 22:31, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Wait. We can give this at least a day for the fog to clear. Chasing the title after a swiftly-moving reality won't really serve us. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Actually to be honest, I agree with you on this one Nat. All we're doing here is arguing, let's wait till tomorrow where we have more info on this. SpringField23402 (talk) 22:39, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Likewise. I feel the title is likely inaccurate or a non final version but it may be worth waiting 24 hours to see how the dust settles. 82.33.197.25 (talk) 22:41, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Wait. Breaking and rapidly changing news is rarely accurate, especially based on third hand accounts of unnamed sources. Q ^{T C} 22:39, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

At least change name to "Incident" instead of "Shooting": From reading the sources, none of them say any bullets were fired by the suspect; to my understanding, the incident was somebody aiming a rifle at Trump, who was stopped before he could fire. Unnamed anon (talk) 22:42, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Trump International Golf Club incident seems a bit too ambiguous, but I agree "shooting" should not be in the title. Swinub★ 22:46, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Wait. Officials believe that this was an assassination attempt, but we currently don't know the suspect's motive for sure. I think we should wait to see if it gets confirmed or not to be an assassination attempt and then devise a title from there. Di (they-them) (talk) 23:13, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Should the article name of the shooting 2 months ago be changed then? Griffin Wilkins (talk) 23:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

There is a discussion for that here. Scuba 23:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

• Move to 2024 Trump International Golf Club incident per User:WellThisIsTheReaper. While weapons were fired, nobody was actually shot, so the current title is misleading. "Assassination attempt" is also inaccurate, although that may change as the investigation unfolds. 162 etc. (talk) 23:44, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

  It was an assassination attempt per the FBI. Scuba 23:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

  An apparent attempted assassination. Not the same thing. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 00:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  FBI and USSS just announced in a joint press conference it was an assassination attempt 216.75.249.245 (talk) 20:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

• Move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida to fit the naming convention of Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, which has it's own discussion to be renamed to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania. Scuba 23:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

  Perhaps September 2024 attempted assassination of Donald Trump (as opposed to July 2024 attempted assassination of Donald Trump) would be more fitting IMO. - CHAMPION ^{(talk) (contributions) (logs)} 00:00, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

• Move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida as CNN is describing it as a second assassination attempt. cookie monster 755 00:04, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  I’ve seen many people quoting CNN said those, CNN said that. However, I must remind everyone that CNN is not the only news source out there. The NYT, WaPo, and the WSJ still describe the incident as an “apparent” or “potential” attempted assassination. Wikipedia’s notability guidelines say that titles should reflect the consensus of a majority of sources, not just one. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 00:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose on procedural grounds as barred by the ongoing move discussion above. Oppose this potential move as hedging more than the media does. Support a move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida as described above. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: I see a lot of suggestions to move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida. Personally, I think the date is a more obvious separation between the previous attempt and this one, rather than location. So, assuming this incident is confirmed to be an assassination attempt, move the current Attempted assassination of Donald Trump to July 2024 Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, and this one to September 2024 Attempted assassination of Donald Trump. Unnamed anon (talk) 00:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Move to Apparent attempted assassination of Donald Trump per source consensus. -- GreenC 01:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

- Oppose on the current naming scheme being described. The current naming scheme being described, i.e. Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida, I don't feel as though it follows WP:PRECISION. Describing the events by location or state feels very vague, and the order of the attempts would be vague as well. Multiple news outlets have reported that the FBI have deemed this as an assassination attempt on Donald Trump, (AP News being my go-to for reliability and lack of bias), so I do Support the renaming to an assassination attempt-type scheme. As users like @Unnamed anon has mentioned above, I personally Support the name change to September 2024 Attempted Assassination of Donald Trump, as it is the most clear and precise name that could be chosen. Best, Zeke (talk) 02:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

• Move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach, as it clarifies the article and more clearly addresses the purpose of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JustARandomEditor123 (talk • contribs) 02:47, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  Support to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 03:43, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  Support move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach. International reliable news consensus is that this was an attempted assassination. For context, please see attached sources meeting WP:NEWSORG and WP:REPUTABLE.

  AP (USA) https://apnews.com/article/trump-assassination-attempt-what-to-know-564c56e167c3cdc6c50f6a2e91db9a6c

  BBC (UK) https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c8dp10d4vq2t

  DW (Germany) https://www.dw.com/en/fbi-investigates-possible-attempted-assassination-of-trump/a-70223167

  CBC (Canada) https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/secret-service-gunshots-trump-golf-club-1.7324106

  ABC (Australia) https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-16/trump-security-detail-mar-a-lago/104355158

  France24 (France) https://www.france24.com/en/americas/20240916-what-we-know-about-the-latest-apparent-assassination-attempt-on-donald-trump

  The New York Times (USA) https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/16/briefing/donald-trump-attempted-assassination.html

  Axios (USA) https://www.axios.com/2024/09/16/trump-florida-assassination-attempt-suspect-ryan-routh

  The Atlantic (USA) https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/09/trump-assassination-attempt/679891/

  The Financial Times (USA) https://www.ft.com/content/815ae83b-b6c3-4cf2-bf1e-4e785453575a

  Sydney Morning Herald (Australia) https://www.smh.com.au/national/australia-news-live-senate-set-to-clash-on-housing-environment-and-the-rba-donald-trump-subject-of-apparent-assassination-attempt-fbi-20240916-p5kas2.html

  Miami Herald (USA) https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article292551724.html Sypher98 (talk) 15:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  I pull up those sources, which repeatedly in the headlines (which we do not count as reliable sources anyway) call it an apparent attempted assassination", and "apparent" is a major hedge from making the statement... and in the articles, they are not even going that far in their own voices; the phrase "attempted assassination" appears in them quoting the FBI, and even then it is preceded by "apparent". So no, those reliable sources are actually avoiding calling it an actual attempted assassination. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 16:10, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  What is the difference between an 'apparent assassination attempt' and an 'assassination attempt'? Sypher98 (talk) 03:53, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  It means "this looks like it was an assassination attempt, but it is not certain". It's something that appears to be an assassination attempt. We see it more often in investigations of apparent suicides, which sometimes turns out to have been murder. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 04:05, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  The FBI says that it appears to be an attempted assassination on President Trump. As a government agency, their statement is considered WP:RS. MightyLebowski (talk) 03:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

  "Appears to be" is the same as "apparent" -- it's not an "is" statement, it's a "looks like" statement. It's a hedge. If we want to titles this "Apparent assassination attempt on Trump", then that's a good basis. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 04:05, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

  That's way better than the current title, if we must compromise.

  It wasn't a shooting at a golf club, it was way more than that, and the FBI has clearly this. I don't know how the title is still "Golf Club Shooting" lol.

  What Orwellian times we live in. MightyLebowski (talk) 14:13, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment I see a lot of people !voting for names that don't include the year. A note for the closer (and those editors), WP:CONLEVEL is quite clear that a consensus here on this talk page cannot override a broader/global consensus at WP:NCE. WP:NOYEAR is very clear that there doesn't yet exist an exception for this article, and the only reason I haven't moved it already to a name with the year is because WP:RM states to not move an article to a different title during a requested move. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

What's preventing the closure of the RM to favour a rename of the article in general to include the year and month and then do a re-vote on the new page's talk if needed? Best, Zeke (talk) 05:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose describing the events by state, which is not ideal if we have better ways to disambiguate (for instance, months). Depending on how RS end up describing it, I could support either 2024 Trump International Golf Club incident or September 2024 attempted assassination of Donald Trump. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 07:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support move. The current title is poor - 2024 Trump International Golf Club incident, Trump International Golf Club incident (per WP:NOYEAR) or similar would be much better. - SchroCat (talk) 11:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  The word "incident" does not fit well at all. SpringField23402 (talk) 11:58, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  In your opinion, maybe. - SchroCat (talk) 15:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  Don't argue SpringField23402 (talk) 11:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  Bugger off and don't try and bully other editors. My opinion stands and I'll ignore insipid arguments like this. - SchroCat (talk) 16:15, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  Look bro, I'm no bully, and don't you even think about bullying back. I just lost my temper a bit because in my opinion, other opinions made by other editors didn't make sense for this article to me. All I can say is, I'm sorry, and can we please move on from here? Plz? SpringField23402 (talk) 18:24, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support move to Second attempted assassination of Donald Trump. PlanetDeadwing (talk) 12:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach or Second attempted assassination of Donald Trump. As others have noted, this follows the precedent of Attempted assassination of Gerald Ford in Sacramento, in which no one was shot. ~ HAL333 12:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  There is, however, precedent for the former title as well, as seen at Trump's 2016 Las Vegas Rally incident. There was no real "attempt" to assassinate Trump (or at least, not in the context in which I am interpreting this to be), but rather there was a "plot" to assassinate Trump, as was the case in 2016. In 2016, no one shot anyone and therefore no one was injured. This was the case here. The assailant, Routh, had no line of sight of Trump, and did not fire the gun. Therefore, by definition there was no attempt to assassinate Trump. This was an incident, and nothing more. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 22:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach. "Second" does not belong in the title, as it was not the second attempt. Swinub★ 12:54, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  I agree JMM12345 (talk) 20:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support move to Second attempted assassination of Donald Trump. GandalfXLD (talk) 19:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida BrendonJH (talk) 20:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose "Second attempted assassination..." and any similar titles. Security incidents involving Donald Trump makes it very clear that this was not the second attempt on his life, but at least the fifth. Thryduulf (talk) 20:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach as this is consistent with how we handle the multiple attempts on Gerald Ford. TocMan (talk) 20:40, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support move to Second attempted assassination of Donald Trump as multiple RS are reporting it this way. Grahaml35 (talk) 21:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida or Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach - Most reliable sources are referring to it as such. I absolutely oppose moving the article to Second attempted assassination of Donald Trump per my !vote in the discussion above. - ZLEA _T\^C 23:04, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Move to September 2024 attempted assassination of Donald Trump as the standard disambiguator. "Second attempted assassination of Donald Trump" leans towards editorializing in my opinion. C F A 💬 01:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Support move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida because that makes most sense to me. SpringField23402 (talk) 01:38, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

• This is your second vote. Strike one of them or both could be ignored by the closing admin. - SchroCat (talk) 16:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support move to September 2024 attempted assassination of Donald Trump. It will make sense as the article title imo. I definitely agree that this article should be renamed and moved.

PEPSI697 (💬 • 📝) 08:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to 2024 Trump International Golf Club Incident The suspect didn't shoot any bullets. FloridaMan21 15:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to 2024 Trump International Golf Club incident as this article does not meet the qualifications for WP:NOYEAR. All sources I've seen have used "apparent assassination attempt" [4][5], so using "attempted assassination" would be misleading and WP:OR. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

• Move to September 2024 attempted assassination of Donald Trump or Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania since it has been established by RSs that there was an attempted assassination and so 'shooting' is not the best descriptor.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 21:43, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose change to "second assassination; this was more of a security incident than an assasination attempt; the guy was apprended before he could do anything. For instance, the truck driver who hit the White House wanted to kill Biden but never made a move beyond breaching the WH security barriers. I see this the same way. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  The assailant also had no clear line of sight on Trump and did not fire his gun. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 23:53, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  Only abc mentioned that. Also how can that be when he was camping outside the golf course for 12 hours? SpringField23402 (talk) 00:31, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

  Are you sure only ABC mentioned that? It seems that… NYT, WaPo, CNN, Politico, and NBC News have all mentioned it! I wonder if that’s a coincidence? Also, just because he camped outside the golf course does not in itself constitute an assassination attempt. WP:NOR, please! --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 04:38, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

  Well almost everybody in this chat is suggesting "attempted assassination" but we'll wait till further details emerge. SpringField23402 (talk) 13:02, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

• Move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida, most reliable sources are referring to this as an assassination attempt. Would also support Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in West Palm Beach, but I prefer the "in Florida" title more. BlueShirtz (talk) 02:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
• Move to something else, because the actual "shooting" appears to have been by law enforcement. I think this should be moved to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump (September 2024) (and then Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania should be moved to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump (July 2024). It is the timing of these incidents that should be the differentiating factor, not the location. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 17:44, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Ryan Wesley Routh

The name of the person detained has been released as "Ryan Wesley Routh"; this already appears in List of people who survived assassination attempts. Shouldn't it also appear here? -- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 22:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Need to source this, buddy. CNC33 (. . .talk) 22:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

You could just copy the source used in the list article.

You could just use the press release from the authorities.

You could also use or any other news broadcast on any news station going on right now in the U.S.

-- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 23:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

R.W.Routh was removed from the list article with this edit [6] -- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 23:02, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

References

At any rate, the question was answered by NatGertler below. I asked a question, I did not make a request to edit the article. -- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 23:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

No. Per WP:BLPCRIME, For individuals who are not public figures [...] editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed or is accused of having committed a crime, unless a conviction has been secured for that crime. At this point, no one has even been charged, much less convicted, and the individual has not been shown be a public figure. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:57, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, he (more than likely) has been written about before, as someone who led an organization trying to recruit foreign volunteers (specifically Afghans) to fight for Ukraine. In other words, Routh is allegedly a high-ranking mercenary, which arguably qualifies as a public figure. While this almost certainly IS the same person, we would need better sources explicitly identifying the two.2600:1014:B07A:4FE3:4D36:ECB:E857:D3AB (talk) 23:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Even if it is the same person (and those are not rare first and last names), a single mention in a single article does not reach the level of being a public figure... nor even if we add in his Boy Scout awards. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:12, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

He’s a public figure now by virtue of his name being announced by officials and published in reliable sources. We identify and name suspects all the time especially when english speaking sources publish their name. Kcmastrpc (talk) 23:31, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

This page has a lot of information about Routh's background: https://www.themainewire.com/2024/09/what-we-know-about-ryan-wesley-routh-2nd-would-be-trump-assassin/ 98.123.38.211 (talk) 23:37, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

That's exactly the opposite of our guidelines and much of our habit. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Stop lying.

• 2024 Apalachee High School shooting
• Killing of Jordan Neely
• Killing of Sonya Massey

Wikipedia names suspects who are pending litigation regularly, especially when their names are all over the news. You’ve been around long enough to know that. Kcmastrpc (talk) 00:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

While WP:BLPCRIME states that for individuals that are considered WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURES, names should more than not be left out of the article. WP:PUBLICFIGURES defines a public figure as someone who has a "multitude of reliable published sources", which as @Kcmastrpc has pointed out, numerous sources have published his name as of writing this, which automatically deems him as a public figure, as well as his inclusion in past articles before, making him blatantly not shy of being in the public eye, making him a public figure. Best, Zeke (talk) 02:41, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Someone created an article for him, Ryan Wesley Routh -- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 04:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Redirects needing checking

The incoming redirects [7] to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) will need checking, to see if all of them are still appropriate, or if any of them should point here, or the disambiguation page Donald Trump shooting (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) that Bluethricecreamman built, or to Security incidents involving Donald Trump (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) -- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 23:34, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Is this page really necessary?

This page seems more like a pro-trump campaign ad than an encyclopedia article. I think recentism alone makes this not notable enough to have its own article, but also the fact that literally nothing happened to trump. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 23:12, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

see above, there is already a discussion on this. As of now most people are saying we should wait. Main discussion is under Move to "Security incidents involving Donald Trump" LuxembourgLover (talk) 23:17, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. assassination attempts of former presidents and current presidential candidates are notable enough for inclusion. Also there was a whole discussion on this already. Scuba 23:58, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Nah, very few attempts actually make it into their own page (see List of United States presidential assassination attempts and plots and how many have standalone articles). If the merge opens or comes up again this is a pretty clear case of merge into Security incidents involving Donald Trump. Aircorn (talk) 03:06, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The differences are:

1. The would-be assassin got a loaded rifle within range of President Trump.

2. Secret Service personnel fired their guns at the suspect.

This is far more than a "security incident" involving a former president. MightyLebowski (talk) 03:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

“pro trump campaign ad” 😂😂😂😂 Indiana6724 (talk) 01:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Why is that funny? 71.114.123.162 (talk) 00:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Because you're being extremely silly. You seem upset Trump has all the attention right now. Get over it. Lostfan333 (talk) 01:12, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Trump had all the attention on July 13 but it dissipated after couple of weeks. I doubt this event will last onto October-November.213.230.87.84 (talk) 01:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Which is all the more reason why this article should be deleted due to recentism. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 17:02, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

You're using WP:RECENT out of context, and it clearly does not apply here in the way that you're implying. MightyLebowski (talk) 03:44, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Typicaly, a wikipedia article is made when a assasination attempt is made on a former president who is running for a election in america

"pro trump campaign ad" Jjbomb (talk) 01:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

That’s not true. Literally nothing happened to trump. This is not notable whatsoever. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 00:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if nothing happened to trump, it is very notable, literally world wide news, any attempted assination on a former and running president will be notable Jjbomb (talk) 00:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Disagree. Wikipedia isn’t the enquirer. We don’t make a Wikipedia article for everything that is being talk about by mass media. Especially if it’s a recent current event. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a news source. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 17:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

The Secret Service fired their weapons at the suspect, who fled after getting a loaded rifle within range of President Trump. That's not a tabloid story, it's serious and extremely notable, whether you are willing to admit it or not. MightyLebowski (talk) 03:45, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

There's a wiki article for doormats, I think we can make one for a assasination attempt on a former president Jjbomb (talk) 06:05, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

• Why are assignation attempts (if this is what this was) of former Presidents in one country notable, when there's no need to have articles for attempts on sitting leaders in other G7 countries? They never even saw Trump, and were scared away some distance from him. Sure, it's notable enough to mention in an article about bigger things. But this seems pretty minor and recentism to deserve a separate article. Nfitz (talk) 06:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  I agree. There is absolutely no justification for a separate article about this incident. It should only be briefly mentioned in Security incidents involving Donald Trump. Unlike the July shooting, nothing happened to Trump yesterday and it wasn't even close. Guycn2 (talk) 09:37, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  I disagree, the Secret Service fired bullets at the suspect.

  Any security incident that rises to the level of Secret Service having to discharge their weapons at someone with a loaded rifle within range of a former president is extremely serious, notable, and deserving of its own article. MightyLebowski (talk) 03:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

  As an American myself, I'd agree. You can check the discussion above under the September 15 move request and weigh in. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 22:32, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

  There are more media articles about this incident than about many other topics that get standalone articles on Wikipedia. The incident is clearly notable enough for its own article. 203.211.104.189 (talk) 07:43, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  Mass coverage by the media does not equate to encyclopedic notability. By your logic every single individual NFL game should get a separate individual Wikipedia article due to each of them receiving mass media coverage. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 16:59, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  An NFL game is hardly the same thing. 2401:7000:CA09:4700:E5E4:7E88:6DE7:6752 (talk) 01:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Last I checked, someone isn't trying to assassinate a former US president every weekend. And when it does happen, the would-be assassin usually comes nowhere close to success. The fact that two people came so close to assassinating him in three months makes this incident more notable than most, as demonstrated by the vast amount of coverage. - ZLEA _T\^C 01:40, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Misinformation and conspiracy theories section needed

Multiple right wing websites are already spinning the theory that Ryan was ex-CIA due to followers/followings on X. Specifically, the "mllesookim" account. 2603:6011:A600:84B1:6FF1:54AA:3C8E:D31 (talk) 02:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Source? Waleed (talk) 03:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

If so there would also need to be mentions of the conspiracy theories on social media once again labeling this as a staged incident. 47.219.89.18 (talk) 03:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Why is this "needed"? Swinub★ 12:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources describing misinfo / conspiracy theories? If so, please link them. If not, we can't include this.

TypistMonkey (talk) 04:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

"Donald Trump shooting" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Donald Trump shooting has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 16 § Donald Trump shooting until a consensus is reached. 64.229.88.34 (talk) 05:04, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Removal of BBC live ref

Hi, Bondegezou, the BBC live ref was removed by Zekerocks11 In this edit here: [8]. David O. Johnson (talk) 06:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Why Zekerocks11 did you remove a reliable source and replace it with nothing or a cn tag? Bondegezou (talk) 06:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I was under the impression that for citations to be considered reliable they had to point to articles and not live refs Best, Zeke (talk) 10:58, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2024

(On the suspect page) The suspect was initially believed to be a Ukrainian protester, but this was disproven. Cornishrom20 (talk) 08:49, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cremastra (talk) 11:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

"Second attempted assassination of Donald Trump" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Second attempted assassination of Donald Trump has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 16 § Second attempted assassination of Donald Trump until a consensus is reached. ArcticSeeress (talk) 12:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2024 (2)

Describing the GoPro found at the scene as "pointed at the target" is not corroborated by either currently cited source. This request is to change "and a GoPro camera pointed at the target." to "and a GoPro camera.", or to cite a source that supports the claim. Polygon97 (talk) 12:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

This change appears to have been implemented at some point since this request. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 20:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

SKS vs AK-style rifle

While preliminary sources seemed to call the weapon used an "AK-47-style rifle," a growing number of reports, like this one from The Washington Post, are speculating based on crime scene photos that the gun used was actually an SKS.

I'm no gun expert, but it definitely looks way more like an SKS than an AK to me. However, given there's a conflict between varying reliable sources, how should this be handled? Ithinkiplaygames (talk) 13:06, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Your Washington Post link discusses the misunderstanding, I think that should be enough from a reliable source to make the edit. More official confirmation will certainly follow. 152.119.223.10 (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

We'll have to wait for confirmation from investigators as to whether it was truly an AK-47 or an SKS. For now, I believe we should say something along the lines of "the assailant carried a gun bearing resemblance to an AK-47-style rifle." We need to be concise regarding the wording and ensure that WP:NOR is being exercised. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 22:29, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

How exactly is this notable enough for an entire separate Wikipedia article?

Literally nothing happened to trump. This should be one line in the security incidents article. I get that trump is a controversial celebrity and all that, but Wikipedia isn’t the Enquirer. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 16:57, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

An assasination attempt on a former US president and current presidential candidate is pretty significant. Bkatcher (talk) 17:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Its not. Its just recentism combined with the silly season and the fact that some wikipedians think we should be a news service. Most attempts and plots do not make or deserve their own article and this is one of them. Aircorn (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Aircorn, do you consider Attempted assassination of Gerald Ford in Sacramento to be inappropriate? Do you really think that the so-called "silly season" (itself a silly phrase) has any relevance here? Squeaky Fromme spent 34 years in prison even though she fired no shots. Do you think those two articles should be deleted? Cullen328 (talk) 01:55, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

It is pretty well known that the quantity and scope of articles on Wikipedia related to anything to do with American politics leading up to an election drastically increases. I don't really want to go down the whataboutism route, but a quick look through List of United States presidential assassination attempts and plots it is clear that not all attempts are notable enough to get their own article. This has already fallen off the news cycle where I am and to be honest it barely registered with all the other "silly" stuff happening your way. Aircorn (talk) 03:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

To say that I disagree with you would be an understatement, Aircorn, but that's OK. I am wondering why you did not answer my question about Squeaky Fromme and her attempt to kill Gerald Ford? I believe that a freestanding article about the 1835 assassination attempt on Andrew Jackson would be a good addition, but we do have Richard Lawrence (failed assassin) at least. Plus, we have plenty of coverage of the many assassination attempts on Queen Victoria, including John William Bean who shot in her general direction with a pistol loaded with paper and tobacco. Cullen328 (talk) 08:02, 18 September 2024 (UTC) Cullen328 (talk) 07:55, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Any assassination attempt on a major public figure, especially a former president, is extremely notable and deserving of its own article when the would-be assassin actually attempts to carry out the attack.

Claiming otherwise is the peak of ridiculousness. MightyLebowski (talk) 03:21, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Not really considering nothing actually happened in this case. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 21:10, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Whether an attack was successful or not doesn't exclusively dictate its noteworthiness. MightyLebowski (talk) 03:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

+1 — Czello ^(music) 08:18, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

It is an assasination attempt so idk what you're talking about. 160.176.91.156 (talk) 18:42, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

What Bkatcher said. It does not matter that it was not successful, its an assassination attempt against a former President/current main party candidate. Easy yes looking at RS coverage of the topic. PackMecEng (talk) 18:48, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Not to dogpile but I'm going to agree with the other comments that it's rather silly to suggest this isn't notable. It's an assassination attempt, the second in a few months, on a former POTUS and current presidential candidate. It is absolutely a notable event. — Czello ^(music) 08:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Because it was an assassination attempt on a former president and current presidential candidate. idk what the question is trying to ask? If someone tried to kill Obama would you find that notable enough for it's own page? Scuba 16:48, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Change title to Attempted Assassination of Donald Trump

The FBI, DOJ and Secret Service have confirmed that this was an attempted assassination on former President Donald Trump as of September 15, 2024 and September 16, 2024 96.60.168.239 (talk) 18:04, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

We already have one of those (Attempted assassination of Donald Trump), and we can't have two articles at exactly the same title. Please join any existing discussion titled 'Requested move', with your suggestion to resolve this naming conflict. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 18:43, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

How to pronounce suspect's last name

The last name of the suspected gunman is apparently Routh. How does someone with a General American accent pronounce Routh? Like Ruth? Or like "Rowth" (where the "th" would be pronounced like it is in "breath", not like it is in "breathe")? Ss0jse (talk) 18:57, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

pronounced like "ruth". Tdmurlock (talk) 19:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Okay. Should this be added to the article? If so, what is your source? Ss0jse (talk) 23:51, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Dmitry Peskov

The Kremlin spokesman has weighed in on the incident now, claiming it shows that “playing with fire has consequences” (referring to Routh’s support of Ukraine). Should this go in the reactions section? [9] 2604:2D80:7186:600:0:0:0:74F0 (talk) 19:40, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Wikipedia is not a platform for Russian propaganda. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 21:13, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely. Only Western propaganda is allowed here. Mikituu (talk) 21:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Propaganda of any kind should not be on Wikipedia. The question of this thread though is whether Russian propaganda as in a quote from a Kremlin mouthpiece should be added to the article. Literally no one is trying to add “western propaganda”. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 22:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Considering this guy supported Ukraine, I don't think a comment from the Press Secretary of the country Ukraine is at war with (aka Russia) should be excluded and simply dismissed as "propaganda". Mikituu (talk) 23:47, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Suggesting that the Kremlin is a reliable source is absolutely insane. You do realize that, don’t you? Wikipedia is based on what reliable sources say, not what the Kremlin says. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 00:17, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Could be included in responses Jack Upland (talk) 04:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Why though? This topic has nothing to do with Russia. We might as well add the Bolivian government’s official response as well for no reason if we’re going to be adding the Kremlin’s response for no reason. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 04:48, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

It depends partly on degree of coverage too. If Russia's response receives a lot of coverage in reliable sources then we should cover it here too. I wouldn't say this event has nothing to do with Russia (it has certainly more to do with it than Bolivia). Russia quotes here: [10] seefooddiet (talk) 07:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

The Kremlin commenting on something that happens does not mean that this event involved Russia in any way whatsoever. This man was not Russian, had no ties no Russia and his actions had nothing to do with Russia. Wikipedia only includes notable encyclopedic content. It’s not a news source. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 16:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

His actions are at least in part motivated by Russia. He talked about assassinating Trump in his ebook about the Russian invasion. Ryan Wesley Routh#Political activities. I do not want to give the Kremlin a disproportionate mouthpiece for this fringe event so I'm holding back from adding it to the article, but I think there's at least several arguments to be made for their statement's inclusion. Skeptical of your total dismissal. seefooddiet (talk) 19:48, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Mercenary

Why is it written “Volunteer” so if a foreigner fights for a country that west doesn’t like he’s considered a “Mercenery” but in case of Ukraine it’s written as “Volunteer” not even trying to hide bias lol 183.82.164.16 (talk) 20:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

You're not wrong, but we use the language that reliable sources use. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

It’s whatever the reliable sources say. I see no bias. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 22:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources I.e those that fit western narrative, makes sense 183.82.164.16 (talk) 22:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

If you don’t like how Wikipedia works, then why are you? 71.114.123.162 (talk) 00:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

A mercenary fights for money; a volunteer fights for a cause. Jack Upland (talk) 04:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Which is ultimately irrelevant. Wikipedia goes off whatever language reliable sources are using. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 04:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Almost like the reliable sources use reliable phrasing. Scuba 16:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Mercenaries have different contracts from regular soldiery, and different pay. Are foreigners becoming sailors impressed by the Royal Navy mercs? No, they are conscripts. If a foreigner joins up to get citizenship, is that a mercenary? If a resident non-citizen does it, is that a mercenary? Is a agent assigned by a foreign government to serve in the local military a merc? Wouldn't that mean all foreign spies in the military are mercenaries? wikt:en:mercenary is more restrictive than any old foreigner in service of military for which they are not citizens. -- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 05:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Lmao IP posters being Russian bots? shocking!

If you can't tell apart a foreign volunteer and a mercenary maybe you should read more on Wikipedia, instead of posting to talk pages. Scuba 16:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 September 2024

"Suspect" section, third paragraph, first line: "Romanian" (reporter in Kyiv...) hyperlink does not include the last "n". Mcscuba8 (talk) 04:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Done. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 04:17, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Kamala Harris radical rhetoric

Right wing Media is saying this is the fault of Kamala’s radical rhetoric should this be mentioned in the article John Bois (talk) 16:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Hard No. Wikipedia is not Fox News. Not every nutty thing that comes out of a talking head ideologue on tv is notable for inclusion in an encyclopedia. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 16:55, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

should be added. similar to how Biden's comment "put trump in a bullseye" was added on the other assassination attempt article. CViB (talk) 03:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes Jack Upland (talk) 16:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

That's against WP:NPOV. Harris had nothing to do with it. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:13, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

@Omnis Scientia: They may have meant that we should include a section similar to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump#Planned by Democrats. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 00:12, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I’m not asking it to be added in, I’m asking should it should be added in because I believe Wikipedia is a place for non bias information John Bois (talk) 00:15, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

@Gluonz, so long as its made clear that Rs are the ones blaming Dems and we aren't writing that Harris' rhetoric was the cause, I'm fine with it. Omnis Scientia (talk) 08:22, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I believe it is worth a mention. 2001:8003:711F:8A01:29CD:F51A:6ED0:9BD5 (talk) 01:02, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Put it in Reactions section.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Proposal: Add an archive(s) to this page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Something like {{subst:User:ClueBot III/JustArchiveThis}} or {{subst:Setup cluebot archiving}}.

Further information on Cluebot III: User:ClueBot III § Quick start, User:ClueBot III/JustArchiveThis § Usage, and Template:Setup cluebot archiving § Usage

Further information on Lowercase sigmabot III: User:Lowercase sigmabot III/Archive HowTo § Setting up archiving, and Template:Setup auto archiving § Usage

Ss0jse (talk) 14:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:RS now say that the FBI Categorizes this as "An Attempted Assassination of the Former President"

How is the title still "Trump International Golf Club Shooting"? This is like calling 9/11 an "aviation accident" 3 days after it happened.

Source:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2024/sep/15/donald-trump-shooting-florida-golf-course?CMP=share_btn_url&page=with%3Ablock-66e75a918f082dce7ae34412#:~:text=The%20FBI%20called%20the%20incident%20%E2%80%9Can%20attempted%20assassination%20of%20the%20former%20president%E2%80%9D.

Objectively, the title should be "Attempted Assassination of Donald Trump in Florida". MightyLebowski (talk) 14:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Further evidence that is directly in this article:

"The Federal Bureau of Investigation is leading the investigation of the incident, with the United States Secret Service and the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office also participating. The FBI is treating the incident as an attempted assassination. Routh's motive is currently unknown, although officials believe that he intended to shoot Trump."

If officials believe that he "intended to shoot Trump", then by definition, officials believe that he intended to assassinate Trump. MightyLebowski (talk) 15:00, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

That article is from the 15th. We have plenty of other sources from that time and since quoting the FBI with fuller quotes that indicate that the FBI is saying what it appeared to be, not what it was. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 17:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

The most recent sources in the investigation subsection are from September 15. Could you add those newer refs to the section? David O. Johnson (talk) 18:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)