Talk:Israel–Turkey relations

Creation

Created page Baristarim 00:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Still being upgraded Baristarim 00:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Israel has even advocated that Turkey make up a majority of peace keepers in Lebanon because it has said that it does not trust troops from other Islamic countries like Bangladesh and Malaysia [12].

The source doesnot work, and I am still trying to look for this news on the net. I haven't found it yet. So i would request to delete this information, if no valid sources exist. thanks ;) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.109.24.246 (talk) 09:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

Ottoman period

I removed the passage :many of these Jews later converted because there is no historical source for that , and given that they had not converted in countries that persecuted them ( Spain and Portugal) , it seems unlikely that they would in a tolerant country. Moreover , the Donmehs are mentionned totally irrelevantly : they are the descendants of some of Sabbatai Tsvi's disciples who followed him in his forced conversion to Islam , and therefore a particular case , not a large community originating in persecution , such as the conversos.

Possible Merger?

{{Multiplemergefrom|[[The History of Turkish-Jewish Relations]], [[The Political History of Turkish -Jewish Relations]], [[Turkey-Israel relations]]|date=February 2007}} Juda S. Engelmayer 19:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I propose that all three articles be merged under this one, the other two articles are forks of each other anyways, and their current content is just a small overview of Turkey-Israel relations in any case.. Baristarim 05:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

—————————————————————————————————————————————————————

I strongly disagree and am very much against these two articles being merged because Turkey-Israeli relations is a distinct subject from Turkey-Jewish relations because Israel does not represent the collective Jewish population around the world even though it is the Jewish state. For example, Jewish organizations based in the United States may reflect quite a different diplomatic status than the State of Israel while still representing a group of Jewish people.

Therefore, this is why I believe these articles, which each have distinctely different subjects, should remain sepparate. Mrzubrow 02:38, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Just as we wouldn't want to merge the article on Israel with the article on Jews, there is equally little sense in merging the article on Turkey-Israel relations with Turkish-Jewish relations. Turkish-Jewish relations are often (not always) a domestic issue within Turkey and they are between two peoples. Whereas Turkey-Israel relations are always an international issue and they are between two states. I am strongly against merging the two. ---Vikiyazar 14:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Against merging. The states are distinct from its people. Turks (of the Ottoman Empire) and Jews long pre-date the creation of modern Turkey and Israel. The relations of both countries (especially the close relations between both militaries) are a fascinating subject that should stand on its own. I should also reiterate the points made above: that we shouldn't conflate Turks and Jews with Israel and Turkey, just as we wouldn't conflate Chinese-Malay relations (in the southeast asian region) with state relations between China and Malaysia. 220.255.113.116 00:22, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Layout

layout of the boxes on the right side of the page look silly when they are next to eachother. This is because the Israel box is much longer, so there is whitespace from the end of the Turkey box down to the end of the Israel box. Can somebody fix this? Rekk 21:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Things to be added

• Turkey's stance on Iran's nuclear program. [1]
• Turkish threats of cooling ties with Israel if the United States recognizes the killings of Armenians as genocide. [2][3][4]
• Turks in Israel. 61,221 Turkish Jews are said to have emigrated to Israel since 1948. This figure does not include second-generation or other Israelis of Turkish descent.[5] As to non-Jewish Turks in Israel, they are mostly young men who come for economic opportunity (especially working in construction), although a small number are students. [6][7][8] --Shamir1 18:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Pipeline

The article says that Turley plans to build a massive pipeline from Turkey to Israel. How is it possible for Turkey to build a pipeline to Israel without crossing Syria? And if the intended route is indded through Syria, then that is very significant, considering that Israeli-Syrian relations aren't very warm.Vice regent 17:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Zionism Resolutions

Turkey voted yes on United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, declaring Zionism a form of racism, and abstained on United Nations General Assembly Resolution 46/86, which rescinded that resolution. I think these facts belong in the article, with an explanation of the apparent contradiction with Turkey's close relation with Israel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dynzmoar (talk • contribs) 12:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorting of material

There are two main things to be sorted on this page, both of which I have hidden near the bottom of the wiki mark-up until they can be sorted out. The first is a large, apparently quite useful and informative timeline, which someone has added with no attempt to wikify it, as far as I can see. Sorting through this timeline (a task I recommend someone very familiar and interested in the topic does) would improve the article no end. As well as that there is some text at the bottom about military relations between Turkey and Israel which I removed from the Turkish-Jewish relations article, where it was inappropriately placed. I don't know how good this material is, but it should be looked at at some point and merged into the proper article. Jdcooper (talk) 20:31, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Lead

Instead of: Ever since the conflict between Israel and Gaza in 2009, in which Hamas were dealt a massive blow, the relations between both countries have strained quite largely, with Turkey criticizing Israel's recent campaign in the Gaza Strip.[6]

This: After the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, relations between both countries became strained, with Turkey condemning the ferocity of Israel's campaign.[6] Chesdovi (talk) 01:11, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't know. 'Hamas being dealt a massive blow' is POV. 1300 dead Palestinians is fact. Bsimmons666 (talk) 01:16, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

No It's too POV. It was fine before. Mentioning the "blow" is too amateurish and violates the policies. LOTRrules _Talk ^Contribs 01:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Need this be mentioned in the lead? Did Turkey specifically mention "1300 dead Palestinians" as the casue of the strain. For those wanting more infomation of what all the fuss is about, they can click on the "2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict" link. This will provide ample insights into the situation, including the bit about phosphorus bombs, which Erdogan mentioned. Does 1,300 do it justice? I have looked at the BBC article, and it doesn't mention 1,300 anywhere? (You will notice that my suggestion here does not mention the Hamas bit) Chesdovi (talk) 01:29, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

That's a good point. How about "Ever since the 2009 Israel-Gaza conflict, the relations between both countries have strained quite largely, with Turkey criticizing Israel's campaign.[6]"? Bsimmons666 (talk) 01:34, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes I agree to that. If we are going to put this as a lead summary then a sub section must also be created as to why he, the PM, walked off and why the relations became strained in the first place. Numbers and stats can be added here as extra information in the readers best interest. LOTRrules _Talk ^Contribs 01:36, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure about Bsimmons666's suggestion. It doesn't read well. The 2nd "the" is redundant and "quite largely" is simply bad English. We would need to indicate vaguely why relations were strained. Please give your opinions on the following:

Ever since Turkey condemned the ferocity of Israel's campaign during the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, relations between both countries have strained.[6] Chesdovi (talk) 01:44, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Easily better than mine, but how about we take out 'the ferocity of'.Bsimmons666 (talk) 01:48, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

You are correct. I was think about what Erdogan said: "savagery", "a crime-against humanity" and "state terror." Let's maybe use "harsh condemnation? He said it himself: "People say my statements are too harsh." We need something stronger than just condemn. Lot's of people condemn, but it doesn't strain relations, etc. Chesdovi (talk) 01:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Thanks for appreciating my userpage quote, by the way. Bsimmons666 (talk) 01:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Washington Institute

GHcool (talk · contribs) is restoring controversial material despite being aware that the material is questionable. Please see discussion on Edrogan talk page. It was determined that Soner's opinion was not valid. It also can be considered libelous since the Sudanese vice president is not being indicted on genocide charges. --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 18:31, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the Washington Institute ref, but just because another article has agreed to something doesn't necessarily mean that their opinion is right. Bsimmons666 (talk) 20:26, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean, please clarify. GHcool is reinstating an opinion that has inaccurate information. Soner Cagaptay claims that Salva Kiir is being indicted on genocide. Mind you, he was a Southern Sudanese rebel fighting against the government/janjaweed. He is not being indicted. --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 21:40, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Muslim Country?

Couple times in the article, Turkey is referred to as a "Muslim Country". Constitutionally it is a secular country with a muslim population. It sounds as if Turkey and other strictly Muslim Countries (i.e. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria etc.) follow the same political agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keepeast (talk • contribs) 07:54, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia article is trying to gloss over the reality: Israel and Turkey are not today allies.

As things stand at the moment, no amount of spin and subterfuge can hide the fact that the relations between Israel and Turkey cannot be described as an alliance, strategic or otherwise, and are steadily worsening. This reality may not suit the agenda of some, but facts are facts, whether one chooses to accept them or not. Also, the cooling of ties did not begin during 2006 Gaza war, but earlier, no matter how much it might suit the interests of some to claim that "it's all Israel's fault".

Jacob Davidson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 17:03, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Decline of Turky-Israel relations

This article is misleading. It is saying that the Turkish-Israeli relations have been undergoing strain since 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza Conflict, strongly implying that the conflict caused the strain. In reality, the strain in relations began well before that, since Turkey's politics have shifted (certainly it was evident shortly after the election of Prime Minister Erdoğan). If the article is going to discuss Turkey-Israel relations, it should certainly mention that the strain in relations began earlier; the article needs to be fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.5.109.39 (talk) 08:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Agree it should be pointed out the relationship only deterioted after Erdogan an islamist came to power. that is the primary reason not the Hate Flotilla.Nbaka is a joke (talk) 19:20, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually Erdogan's relations with Israel were very good at the beginning. He was in close contact with Israel, while arranging peace meetings between Hamas and Israel in Istanbul. He was working for the peace -and of course for Turkish influence- within the middle east region. He tried to do it with the acceptance of Israel government. He was aiming for the leadership in the region, together with Israel. This unofficial pact was not very public. The damaging speeches came from the people in Israel's delegate level. I think, the speeches from the Israel nationalists who were not in the core government, started to damage the relations between Turkey and Israel. And the flotilla raid set it off. Realmegrim (talk) 12:33, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

historical background on that page?

first off, this is a wiki article, try to stay away freom political discussion, which i observed clearly. secondly, Turkey-Israel relationship doesnt consist of just after "one minute accident". I have a question. should we extend article by bringing information about historical background of Jewish-Turkish people or Turkish empires relation or should we create new article about Jewish-Turkish relations, including Ottoman Empire, even Khazars? --Yetjanissary (talk) 17:23, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

no mention of visa or immigration relationships

Israelis can go to turkey visa free etc.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 12:23, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Big deal. Even if it is still the case, I doubt too many will be taking advantage of it. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 14:21, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

trolling

Newspaper authors can say whatever they think cause there are author views like others do ! Turkey will not send new flotilla to Palestine. You can not insert Turkey's policy according to inserting some author views. Turkey will not send another flotilla or to protect them with warships.

Wikipedia writes realities.can not imagine for the future! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.242.129.132 (talk) 21:28, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

It's reports from the major turkish news agencies. It's not from a column of some author or imagination of somebody.83.66.115.138 (talk) 21:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

What Turkey announced

Hurriyet is not the major newspaper.

http://www.euronews.net/2011/09/02/un-report-on-israel-s-flotilla-raid-fuels-turkish-wrath/ here is the source that you should use.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.242.129.132 (talk) 23:03, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

88.242.129.132: Nobody is removing anything based on your demands. If you don't like what is going on in Turkey don't blame the messenger. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 22:52, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Sources

Wikipedia doesn't refer to turkish or jewish press sources. There is no official explanation from Turkey that Erdogan is planning visit to Gaza. You should write official explanations between two countries relations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.242.129.132 (talk) 23:10, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

88.242.129.132: Proper reference links on Wikipedia always indicate the source of the quotation or text, albeit not by religion ("turkish or jewish press sources") as you seem to want. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 22:55, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Error ?

At the spinning end there is fragment "future Israeli gas exports to Cyprus". Cyprus has large sea gas fields so how come Israel wish to export gas to Cyprus? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.15.121.116 (talk) 20:38, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Erdogan is Not going to Gaza

http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/id/25249632/ Edit that, Here is the source from Turkish press taken from Turkish PM.There is no plan to visit Gaza — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.8.90.140 (talk) 11:58, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Turkish media reported that Turkey is considering sending warships to escort future civilian ships heading to Gaza???Edit

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4120259,00.html "Erdogan says misquoted on warships Turkish PM's office softens threat of military clash at sea, says country 'won't send vessel to Mediterranean Sea as long as Israel avoids intervening in freedom of movement in international waters' " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.8.90.140 (talk) 13:00, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

The clash at sea has already started.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/report-israel-scrambles-iaf-warplanes-toward-turkish-ship-1.387407

So when does the shooting start? Hcobb (talk) 16:38, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

That's not a clash. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 21:45, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Almost Disinformation

or lack of information. Why you pot such broad timeframe for it? :: "In September 2011, Turkey expelled Israel's ambassador..." A day date is a must . It do not take a month to expel ambassador . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.90.197.87 (talk) 11:23, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Also it was expelled after Palmer report was realized and it wasn't mentioned even.--Shrike (talk) 16:11, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

nothing better is to be expected when Hasbara propagandists distort wikipedia as usual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.60.142.240 (talk) 17:44, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

IFF Capability

This was recently added to the article:

• Turkey is also updating their American supplied Identification friend or foe to identify Israeli aircraft as hostile so that they can be fired on.

The addition cited an article from Ha'aretz, but that article does not support the claims made in the addition to this Wikipedia article. I've removed the addition for the time being. The Ha'aretz article only claims that Turkey has acquired technology that will make them "able" to designate Israeli aircraft as "foes," something that Turkish F-16s were incapable of doing so in the past. The article does not claim that Turkey has gone the extra step of actually designating Israeli military aircraft as foes. Again, this is only a capability they have now acquired, not a statement of exercising that capability. Further, the sourcing on this story seems to be second hand, third hand, or even fourth hand. No one from the Turkish defense establishment has actually been quoted with regards to the new capability. The sourcing for the article is the Iranian state-run Press TV claiming something was reported in a Turkish newspaper (which isn't even named). --OuroborosCobra (talk) 21:30, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Reason for Erdogan leaving Davos

The paragraph in it's current incarnation is written is such a way that it makes it seem like Erdogan stormed off after being insulted by Avi Mizrahi. Most sources however that can be found on the internet point to the fact that he left because he felt he was being done injustice by having less time to talk and being told to stop talking any more. On the other hand I couldn't find any source that state Avi Mizrahi's comment as having had any role in that. Unfortunately I failed in finding a better way to word it, so I'd hope that somebody here who is better at this could lend me a hand here. Serazahr (talk) 07:42, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Fixed it myself Serazahr (talk) 03:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Imam in Istanbul

Turkey is a secular state, thus the statements of an Imam have no connection to government policy, action, or the foreign relations of the state. That, and you need a source for your quote anyways. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 17:27, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Copyright

Can I remind contributors that Wikipedia copyright violation policy is non-negotiable - copy-pasting material into the article (with a word or two changed) is entirely against policy, and must be reverted immediately. I have already removed a paragraph from the 'tourism' section because of this, and suspect that further material will also need removal. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:50, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Why should pictures of past joint military exercises between Israel and Turkey should be added?

Why they should be added since Turkey cancels and military collaboration with Israel and even tries to convince NATO to cut its relations with Israel?AbrahemHaif (talk) 20:06, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Did these exercises pictured occur? --OuroborosCobra (talk) 22:15, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Because the article is about that: Israel-Turkey relations. Joint military exercises are part of that relationship. --E4024 (talk) 22:18, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

NO SIR Erdogan's goverment and senior military officials in Turkey have allowed NO military cooporation with Israel since 2009 and apparently a military collaboration between Cyprus, Israel and Greece was formed.AbrahemHaif (talk) 09:05, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I am not young but still hear good; so first of all do not shout. Secondly, this article is not limited to certain period of relations between the two countries. Thirdly, other alliances of Israel do not fit in here; read WP:NOTAFORUM. Last but not the least, please do not add subjective and provocative expressions like "enemies" to your edit summaries. --E4024 (talk) 11:47, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

My recent edits

I came to this page chasing a sockpuppet and decided to contribute a bit. Why? First of all, the article was -and still partially is- very unilateral, looking at everything from an Israeli angle. It also lacked a huge part of the history of bilateral relations between the two countries. It had not even bothered to explain the ups and downs in these relations since the establishment of diplomatic relations. One got the impression that since 1992 the two had ambassadorial relations, implying that the relations had always gone in a smooth or rising level until recently. There still are several issues to tackle with. There is a wrong usage of sources because the text gives the impression that the two Israeli missions in Turkey only extend diplomatic protection to their citizens in some parts of the country and not in others. This is due to lack of understanding about the functions of diplomatic and consular missions. (Every Embassy, well almost every Embassy, has a "consular section" and that section responds for part of the country where the Embassy and Consulates are. In general terms.) I did not have time to see military, economic, cultural etc sections; other than the tourism section which did not consider the Turks at all (was not even giving correct basis of visa info) and made no insight into if Turks visit Israel or not, and if not why... If I am not disturbed with nationalist disruption will come back and help make this article a real "Turkey and Israel" article. --E4024 (talk) 21:18, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

More: The history and political relations sections of the article have become better with my recent edits but still they are weak. Moreover, if we continue to make additions to the article on recent developments in separate sections, as some editors do, we risk to have not an encyclopedia article on the bilateral relations of these two nations but a file (or an annotated list) on the actual state of affairs, which I believe, is not what is expected from WP. People who wish to learn about those issues could more easily find them in the press. We have to "integrate" those recent developments into the related sections (political, economic, cultural etc relations) and not add every "development" as a new section. It is easy to use the internet for the actual info, but this article needs more visits to the library (remember, the place where we keep books? :-) --E4024 (talk) 20:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I concur. Too many hasbara sock-puppets on wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.60.142.240 (talk) 17:46, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

We need to include the latest contretemps

Aftermath of Erdogan's speech in late Feb. /early March 2013. AnonMoos (talk) 01:55, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Links

>> Turkey and Israel 'close to reviving ties' (Lihaas (talk) 19:45, 10 February 2014 (UTC)).

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External links modified

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Excerpt

Currently the section Israel–Turkey relations#Armenian genocide denial is excerpted from Armenian Genocide denial. Why not just copy and paste it? Similar content will understandably take a different shape at different articles due to scope and weight.VR _talk 12:16, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

"French President Emmanuel Macron's statement about Islam" is too ambiguous

"French President Emmanuel Macron's statement about Islam" is quite ambiguous. I would propose adding this explanation from this Wikipedia page:

"In October 2020, President Emmanuel Macron announced a crackdown on "Islamist separatism" in Muslim communities in France, saying a bill with this objective would be sent to parliament in "early 2021." Among the measures, would be a ban on foreign imams, restrictions on home schooling, and the creation of an "Institute of Islamology" to tackle Islamic fundamentalism. His government introduced a bill that would punish with jail terms and fines any doctor who provides virginity certificates for traditional, religious marriages. ANCIC stated it supported the government's stand against "virginity tests", but warned that in some cases women were in "real danger" and "a ban would simply deny the existence of such community practices, without making them disappear". The association suggested that the issue be "tackled quite differently, so that women and men free themselves and reject the weight of [such] traditions." On 16 February 2021, the law passed the lower house 347—151 with 65 abstentions."

as a note, which is the statement that was probably meant in the Israel–Turkey relations Wikipedia article, if it's not that statement of Macron, that just further proves the ambiguousness of this Wikipedia article.

Kiosk1000 (talk) 16:13, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 November 2022

İnserting Armenian genocide here is literally irrelvent. We Do not talk about congo Genocide when we talk about belgium israel relations. So isn't this armenian political agenda of creating anti turkish sentiment with too much emphasise ofin Genocide? 81.213.40.135 (talk) 20:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: I don't have access to the source itself but per our article "According to historians Rıfat Bali [de; tr] and Marc David Baer, Armenian genocide denial was the most important factor in the normalization of Israel–Turkey relations". Doesn't appear to be irrelevant Cannolis (talk) 20:41, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 October 2023

Italic text

On 28 October 2023, Israel withdrew all its diplomats from Turkey to reassess the relations between the two countries, according to a statement by Israel‘s foreign minister Eli Cohen. This move came in the aftermath of comments by Turkish President Erdogan, accusing Israel of war crimes in the occupied Palestinian Territories. Israel already pulled out most of its diplomats a week earlier, and urged all Israeli citizens to leave Turkey. 213.55.225.244 (talk) 13:40, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I think this should be added. Feel free to ping me If nobody else does it in the next couple of days. M.Bitton (talk) 00:49, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done: I left out the last sentence as I couldn't find it in the cited source, and to be fair, I don't think it adds much. M.Bitton (talk) 23:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Turkish Ambassador Recalled

The Turkish ambassador was recalled, according to France24. It's not noted on this article, but it's on the Israel-Hamas war article. - MateoFrayo (talk) 19:55, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Fix wrong Eli Cohen link

• What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

In the following sentence:

On 28 October 2023, Israel withdrew its diplomats from Turkey to reassess the relations between the two countries, according to a statement by Israel‘s foreign minister Eli Cohen.

Change the link from Eli Cohen to Eli Cohen (politician, born 1972), or remove the link entirely since the Eli Cohen (politician, born 1972) link already exists in the article one paragraph before.

• Why it should be changed: The link should point to the correct person

References

spintheer (talk) 03:04, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done Since the correct link already exists in the section I removed this one completely per MOS:DUPLINK. Thanks for catching this. Jamedeus (talk) 04:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Error?

"and further upgraded to the level of "Embassy" as of January 1980." - this does appear in some sources on the subject but seems to be a mistake as news reports from the period do not support this claim 85.130.252.10 (talk) 09:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)