Talk:Ukrainian nobility of Galicia

Name

Could this be moved to Ukrainian nobility? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 21:16, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I thought about that; however the historical circumstances in western Ukraine were quite different from that of central Ukraine - the Western Ukrainian nobility being descended from poor Galician boyars and princely retainers, the "noble villages" near the city of Sambir, the Austrian reforms, and the 20th century stuff that does not have anything corresponding in eastern Ukraine; there was some overlap, such as Galician nobles going to Zaporizhia, but basically they were their own community. In central Ukraine there were magnates that became Polonized over the years, and cossacks that entered noble-like social group, but not the petty gentry that this article is about. The Galician nobility developped from the Galician kingdom which was seperated from the rest of Ukraine from the 13th century.Faustian (talk) 01:36, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Eventually, someone could write an article about Ukrainian nobility, with sections on different regions and redirects to specific lengthy and detailed articles about each region, such as this article about western Ukraine, another article about central Ukraine. I don't have the time to write those, and until they're written I think that this one should be kept like it is.Faustian (talk) 01:38, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Then should we redirect the Ukrainian nobility article here? Or perhaps I could trouble you to stub it? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 02:34, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Maybe make a redirect for now, and I'll work on a stub eventually. Been kind of busy lately...Faustian (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Article move

This was discussed when it was still a stub years ago, but the Western Ukrainian aspects of the Ukrainian nobility have long since been developed and established within the content of the article.

The result of such a WP:BOLD move is a WP:POV generalisation of the subject. Ukrainian 'nobility' by no means existed in Western Ukraine alone, and omitting central and eastern Ukraine is not merely remiss, but downright misleading. My suggestion is that it be restored to it's previous accurate WP:TITLE. Any article on Ukrainian nobility covering the entirety of what constituted the nobles and nobility of the entire region is going to be far too complex and comprehensive in calibre to even consider covering it in a single article. At this point in time, presenting Western Ukrainian nobility as if they were the sum total of Ukraine is POV elitism. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:00, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

I wrote this article about the nobility of western Ukraine, specifically. The article was not intended to be about all Ukrainian nobility or about Ukrainian nobility in general, but about Ukrainian nobility from a specific region, that (as is shown in the article) developed as a particular class under specific historical circumstances limited to that region. Accordingly, I don't think the the title "Ukrainian nobility" is appropriate, as it is not the subject of this article.Faustian (talk) 04:31, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I'm certainly aware of the fact that it deals with historical content relevant to the Western Ukrainian region. I was going to revert the move, but wanted the editor who moved it to be given a chance to explain the rationale for the renaming in case they had RS and solid content to add to, and elaborate on, the far broader and disparate nature of 'nobility' in other regions of Ukraine. There was no evidence, however, of new sources, sections, or formatting of the article to suggest that any development was underway. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:46, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you!Faustian (talk) 04:50, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Removal of some good faith edits

Adding to my comments above, this article is a much elaborated and detailed one whose topic is also described in this article in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine: [1]. Information about nobility in other regions of Ukraine wouldn't be relevant for this article. Perhaps another article could be written about that other topic. (I am too busy to do this though). I'n not sure that using this topic as a foundation for a different article about Ukrainian nobility in general would be the best approach. As this article shows, there did exist a particular class limited to western Ukraine, with its own development, culture and history.Faustian (talk) 04:50, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

1349 - the context

Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia The Polish conquest of the kingdom in 1349 ended its vassalage to the Golden Horde. Xx236 (talk) 07:11, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Correct, but this relationship was much more loose than was the one with Poland in, which was a takeover and integration. I'm not sure if this detail is all that relevant for this subject.Faustian (talk) 14:03, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Reverted some changes

This article is about a distinct social group within Galicia - ethnic Ukrainian nobles. It isn't about all nobles in Galicia (i.e., Polish ones - who are covered in the szlachta article) nor about ethnic Ukrainian nobles from regions outside Galicia, such as the Ostrogski family. I reverted some good faith edits in order to reflect this.Faustian (talk) 05:48, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Faustian. I just noticed the page move and was about to revert the undiscussed move on the same grounds. I understood that the move was AGF, but it was a conflation of two groups of nobles within the parameters of a convoluted history. These are two separate articles about the nobility in an approximate area (not only Galicia, but covering the west bank of the Dnieper), which is why the subject was split in the first instance. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:36, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Issues

This is a difficult topic to define since identities were in flux and nationalities in the modern sense did not exist back then. What exactly is the topic of this article and its exact geographic location (western Ukraine can mean anything west of Kyiv)? Ukrainians as such did not exist at that time as a separate ethnicity in the area you describe, by all contemporary accounts they were called Ruthenian, the term Ukrainian did not develop until later. Do you mean nobles who spoke Ukrainian as their native tongue? This article looks like it is applying today's nationalities/ethnicities on top of something that was named differently back then. Are you describing Ruthenian nobles in Galicia? The lead sentences also make no proper explanation but talks about some "western Ukrainian society" when that country was not in existence. Which society are we speaking of when there was no cohesive sense of belonging to a Ukrainian one? Do you mean the noble society, as a class? So it would be good if you could specify better what you mean exactly and how they juxtapose to the Polish nobility that was also in Galicia at the same time. Or were almost all nobles in Galicia Polish at that time, what are the numbers in comparison? This would help to clarify the picture.

You also removed any mention of the Sejm in Lviv, which was a parliamentary body where nobles of all colours were represented. Mentioned is only the relationship some had with the burgeoning national awakening movement, but what about the rest? This also needs to be mentioned. What was their position and their privileges in the political system during Austrian rule, what role did they play in the Sejm? Gryffindor (talk) 15:03, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the discussion, Gryffindor. Just as articles about Ukrainians inevitable include people who considered themselves to be Ruthenians ("Ukrainians" did not become a widespread term for these people until the mid to late 19th century), so this article is about people who at one time considered themselves to be Ruthenians but who are now referred to as Ukrainians. The change in name does not mean that "Ukrainians did not exist." So we follow the lead of published history texts that refer to these people as Ukrainians. Basically, eastern Slavs native to what is now western Ukraine, whose cultural roots were with the defunct Rus state or more specifically the Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia. As the article explains, these people segregated themselves from ethnic Poles (even if they were politically allied to them) and spoke the Ruthenian/Ukrainian language and followed the Orthodox and later Greek Catholic (not, as in the case of Poles, Roman Catholic) religion - thus, they were not ethnic Polish szlachta. They also, as the article explains, segregated themselves from Ruthenian/Ukrainian peasants. Thus these western Ukrainian nobles formed a distinct social group. This phenomenon only developed in western Ukraine/Galicia. The article covers the genesis of this ethnic group in the 14th century and includes a map showing Galicia. It seems clear, but I can try to clarify further. I haven't come across west Ukrainian nobles being active in the Sejm, if you see this mentioned somewhere, it would of course belong in this article. I'm not sure why you placed the POV tag on the article. It follows the reliable sources closely. Faustian (talk) 21:19, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Update: I have changed the wording of the lede to address some of the concerns. Things seem to be explained in the article's body, so changes are less warranted there.Faustian (talk) 03:12, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

To my understanding, you've brought the lede in line with the body content, so there is no misunderstanding as to the subject's differentiation from the Polish szlachta per WP:TITLE. I'm not sure what the POV tag was in reference to (an imagined WP:POVFORK?). If that was the case, hopefully any such concerns have now been allayed. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:28, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Ruthenian nobility

Why is the Ruthenian nobility nowhere mentioned in this article and how exactly are they different? It says they are from Galicia–Volhynia, which is basically the same territory this article is describing. Gryffindor (talk) 23:42, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

"Ruthenian" is a broad term that can also apply to people of Belarus; it is also obsolete and thus not as descriptive.Faustian (talk) 15:15, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

That is not answering the question. Ruthenia applies to Galicia and Volhynia in the past. This needs to be described in the article. Gryffindor (talk) 12:15, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Rename

Why was this page renamed without discussion? The word "shliakhta" is simply the Ukrainian word for noble. This article is not about nobles in general but about the ethnic Ukrainian nobility of Galicia specifically (there were also shliakhta in Kiev, etc. and the Ukrainian word is also used to refer to Poles). Furthermore, this being the English-speaking wikipedia, the word shliakhta is rather obscure. "Ukrainian nobility of Galicia" is a more accurate and specific, as well as accessible term.Faustian (talk) 15:02, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

As an example, the Encyclopedia of Ukraine redirects "shliakhta" to "nobility" :[2] and the subsequent article about nobility involves nobles form Kiev region, and ethnic non-Ukrainians. While someone is welcome to create such an article, this one is about a specific group of people: Ukrainian nobles from Galicia. Encyclopedia of Ukraine has an entry for this specific group - Petty Gentry: [3]. Since wikipedia is not focused Ukrainian topics, a more specific title seems to be more appropriate. The current one seems best.Faustian (talk) 15:12, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

See szlachta as format example. Gryffindor (talk) 12:17, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Sure, but the szlachta article is about all Polish nobility, as well as Ruthenian/Ukrainian and Lithuanian nobles. "Shliakhta" would refer to all Ukrainian nobles. This article is about a specific population in western Ukraine with its own history and culture, different from that of nobles in other parts of Ukraine. Furthermore, while szlachta appears fairly often in English-language works (260,000 results here: [4], shliakhta does not (only 1,590 results, most of whcih refer to Polish not Ukrainian nobility [5]). Shliakhta would give this article an imprecise and needlessly obscure title.Faustian (talk) 15:05, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps this article would be better titled "Ukrainian nobility of western Galicia" TwelveGreat (talk) 15:20, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

It was Eastern Galicia, but the region is usually simply referred to as Galicia and there is not confusion if it remains "Galicia." (there was not a different Ukrainian nobility in western Galicia).Faustian (talk) 01:38, 28 April 2018 (UTC)