Talk:Trauma in the Russian invasion of Ukraine

Syndrome?

Is this an actual medical syndrome? Seems more like just a name for Russian soldiers committing violence at home after returning from combat in Ukraine. Almost none of the sources in the article are actually talking about the subject under that name, too. HappyWith (talk) 19:08, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

The sources correlating it with a specific set of disorders (psychological, psychiatrical, pathological) are the 3 last sources ; which are the only ones that are used to describe the syndrome. The others sources are here for background purposes and only qualify background or incidences, they are not used to qualify the syndrome in the page. AgisdeSparte (talk) 19:47, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

The sources don't actually call it a syndrome. The Le Libre source, translated from French, only says "According to some Russian psychologists, a phenomenon of “Ukrainian syndrome”, similar to the “Afghan” or “Chechen” syndromes, affects Russian soldiers. This increases the level of violence in society.". I don't have full access to the Courrier source, but it doesn't call it a real medical condition either in the parts I can see. All the sources repeatedly put it in quotes, as if to mark it as a dubious term. I think we should rewrite it to be about the term and the incidents of Russian soldiers committing violent crimes, not the supposed actual condition. HappyWith (talk) 19:53, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

They do, and they compare it clearly with the "Afghan syndrome" and the "Chechen syndrome", also put under quotes, even if they are known medical conditions.^[1][2][3][4] AgisdeSparte (talk) 20:02, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Moreover, the Ukrainian syndrome starts to receive attention and be understood by psychologists, for example, who point to similarities, but also to differences with the Afghan, Chechen and Vietnam syndromes. You can find such researchs being made recently (since the subject is recent and doesn't pre-exist to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, ofc) here.

Moreover, we should note that it isn't only about Russian soldiers (that's why I let the last sentence open, to allow for Wikipedians to add others than Russian soldiers) ; but to anyone who was exposed to the Ukrainian war at some extent and having medical issues linked to it (more likely psychological/psychiatrical so far). This article, for example, only focus on the Ukrainian Youth developing such syndrome.^[1] AgisdeSparte (talk) 20:10, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

That exact screenshot essentially says that it's just a name for war trauma. If that's what this article is about, why not just move it to Trauma during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, rather than referring to it by a term that is only used by some Russian psychologists talking about murderous ex-Wagnerites? HappyWith (talk) 20:14, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

As for differences with trauma patterns from other wars, this is just due to different circumstances (unlike say Gulf War Syndrome. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 07:45, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

I tend to agree.

This page appears to still be in the new page patrol backlog.

If it makes it through page review (which I’m unsure of), and the quality hasn’t improved after a grace period of two weeks or so, I’ll AfD it (if I remember). RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 07:43, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 29 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Clyde _{[trout needed]} 20:44, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

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Ukrainian syndrome → Trauma in the Russian invasion of Ukraine – "Ukrainian syndrome" is a niche term occasionally used for the trauma of Russian soldiers used by a couple French academics. It's not a real "syndrome" at all, and the same term is used for other topics with little consistency, because it's not a real established concept. Expanding the article's scope at the new title will allow it to cover the same topics comprehensively with a more sensical title. HappyWith (talk) 04:32, 29 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Polyamorph (talk) 09:42, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

• Strong support looking up "Ukrainian syndrome" on Google I actually see more results about a supposed syndrome affecting Ukrainians rather than Russians. I think a redirect should not be kept. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:20, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  • Strong oppose : I oppose this proposal; certainly, the page was lacking specific information about the syndrome, but I added some this morning with scientific sources. I reworked the page to encompass all those involved or affected by the war, whether they are civilians or military personnel. You can observe from the added sources that the terminology is unequivocal, and although it's still a largely unexplored field of research due to the ongoing nature of the war and the current relevance of the subject, there is a clear consensus in the cited sources for naming it as such.

  AgisdeSparte (talk) 09:57, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  Many of the sources have serious problems. Ex: The December 2014 source calls it "Ukrainian syndrome" once, and then mostly calls its subject by the actual name: "characteristics of post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in the participants of the anti-terrorist operation (ATO), and refugees"; the Stebliuk source never calls it Ukrainian syndrome at all; and the Tolstoukhov source is a preprint.

  If you go to Google and look up "Ukrainian syndrome", you'll find sources saying it, but they all use it to define different things, making it a useless label for Wikipedia's purposes. Why do we need to use an obscure phrase that never gets used outside of a few papers (many of them written by the same few authors) when we could just use the WP:RECOGNIZABLE and non-WP:ASTONISHing title "Trauma..."? A normal reader would definitely not first try to search for "Ukrainian syndrome" to find the info we cover in this article. HappyWith (talk) 19:28, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, it can be said that the lack of sources on the Ukrainian syndrome is noticeable, as I pointed out in my initial response. However, we still have plenty of sources that do address it, despite ongoing studies and research on conflicts generally being in their early stages, not only for Ukraine. Scientific research takes decades, especially in fields as complex as psychiatry and psychology. What stands out from the sources, even the one from 2014 - and you'll notice that I've added two more, bringing us to a total of around ten additional academic sources - is that there is a specificity to the traumas experienced in Ukraine or by individuals affected by the conflict in Ukraine, as is the case with other conflicts whose nomenclature doesn't pose a problem. Several sources mention a syndrome specific to this conflict, rather than a general trauma; no source indicates the opposite, and decisions in talk page should be based on sources. Furthermore, you'll notice that a significant number of the sources used and that openly support this terminology are cited without issue in other scientific articles, which consider them to be entirely reliable.

  Regarding the last two points, the page "Gulf War Syndrome" does indeed bear that name without causing much trouble. Yet, an internet user might also search for "Trauma during the Gulf War" to reach this page, and, of course, they wouldn't necessarily think they need to type that in directly. AgisdeSparte (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

  Gulf War syndrome was widely reported as such in English-language press, so the name became COMMONNAME. This subject has not been.  —Michael Z. 15:05, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Support. Yes, this little-used name appears in several papers on the first page of Google Scholar results, all by the same group of Ukrainian scholars (Matiash et al.). But the first ten pages of results for PTSD Ukraine War do not return this name even once. By the way, it has also been used to refer to something about the long arc of Ukrainian history and culture,[1]a comparison of Chornobyl to the China syndrome,[2][3][4], the Ukrainian diaspora,[5], the state of Ukraine in 1991,[6] the gas wars,[7] the state of Ukraine before the Revolution of dignity[8][9][10] something else vaguely related,[topwar dot ru /209033-anatom-ukrainskoj-dejstvitelnosti-medvedchuk-i-pravitelstvo-v-izgnanii.html] a restructuring of world order after the 2014 invasion of Ukraine,[11][12][13] etcetera (I’m not vouching for any of these as reliable sources). And there appears to be much more for the exact synonym “Ukraine syndrome.”  —Michael Z. 15:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nomination, Super Dromaeosaurus and Michael Z. As further substantiated in additional comments by HappyWith, the proposed main title header is indeed more intuitive in specifying the source of the syndrome. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 06:54, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.