Talk:Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard FC

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:53, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Mipo Stadium

The article Mipo Stadium has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

A search for references found no support for this article, fails WP:N and WP:V

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

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Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Jeepday (talk) 13:04, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Name

It's hard to tell what's most common in English sources for this team, but "Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphins FC" is the form of the name used, for instance, here. I see little evidence the other form is more common. Some sources just call them "Ulsan Dolphins", so that might be the way to go.Cúchullain ^t/c 00:28, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I've moved the article back again, for the same reason.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:20, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

And again. Please provide sources indicating that a different name if the article is to be moved.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:26, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

For the fourth and final time, the single source used in the article (this) uses the form Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphins FC. Fetx2002, if you continue move warring without explanation, you will be blocked from editing.Cúchullain ^t/c 14:30, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Official english name is Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin FC. No Dolphins. You consult Hyundai Mipo Dolphin official site. http://www.dolphinfc.com/--Fetx2002 (talk) 08:38, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

That site is in Korean. We need to establish what the team is typically called in English-language sources, if they exist. So far, the one and only English language source currently used at the article uses the name "Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphins FC".--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:04, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

By Korea Football Association's website, this article moved to "Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dolphin FC." Sawol (talk) 02:36, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 19 January 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Ulsan Dolphins. Sources are scarce, but Google hits back up the consensus view here that Ulsan Dolphins is the WP:COMMONNAME for the club in English. (non-admin closure)  — Amakuru (talk) 16:14, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

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Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dolphin FC → Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin – It is official name.--KRAKOV (talk) 15:36, 19 January 2016 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 09:44, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment we prefer the use of WP:COMMONNAME versus WP:OFFICIALNAME whenever possible. Since this is in Korean, can you please provide some English sources to establish the proposed name as its common usage? Tiggerjay (talk) 17:25, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - on principal. Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin seems hardly ever to be used for the club, although Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dolphin is also not really used that much. Infact, Ulsan Dolphins seems to be the most common name. Fenix down (talk) 10:42, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 18:06, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• Move to Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphins FC, per Soccerway. 18:10, 27 January 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by GiantSnowman (talk • contribs)

• Comment - why just because Soccerway uses it GS? Google indicates that this is also not a particularly common use, not compared to Ulsan Dolphins anyway. Fenix down (talk) 08:52, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Soccerway name is not correct.--KRAKOV (talk) 11:08, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• Move to Ulsan Dolphins. Per @Fenix down:, I believe this is the common name in English. 21:54, 28 January 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joseph2302 (talk • contribs)

Not Dolphins. Official name is not include s.--KRAKOV (talk) 03:26, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

• Move to Ulsan Dolphins Per Fenix down. Also @Fetx2002: per the commonname research by Fenix, the "s" appears to be more commonly used in English, 10x as often. Tiggerjay (talk) 16:36, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Team name is proper noun. It is not apply in your opinion.--KRAKOV (talk) 10:36, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Never Ulsan Dolphins, Let's Discuss Again about club name

In Korea, Any korean football fans never call this club as Ulsan Dolphins! I think few foreign users of wikipedia don't have right to create korean club's English name. Ulsan Dolphins is absoultely not common English name. Ulsan Dolhpins is just convenient name that create by foreigners who don't know how to call this club in South Korea.

I think this situation is very ridiculus. Interested parties - club officials, players, korean football fans never call this club as Ulsan Dolhpins. But some wikipedia foreign users can change football club name by vote.

I understand that name Ulsan Dolphins is very simple and convenient and more like sports club name, in terms of foreigners. So foreigners prefer Ulsan Dolphin.But To my regret, Koreans don't call this club Ulsan Dolphins and Dolphins is not important element in club name. This club is traditional works team owned and controlled by Hyundai Mipo Dockyard company. In club name. Most important element is Hyundai Mipo Dockyard

Anyway, Official English name is Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dokyard Dolphin FC If this name is to long, So we choose common and simple English name. Alternatives are Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dokyad FC or Hyundai Mipo Dokyad FC

I think club name is not a issue to decide by vote. Please visit website and refer to below English football name and translate koreans to English. Club website don't have Ulsan Dolphin(울산 돌고래) in korean. http://www.dolphinfc.com

We have to follow the official reference.

Footwiks (talk) 15:07, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

We don't follow official names, we follow WP:COMMONNAME. You can clearly see the consensus that globally Ulsan Dolphins is the most commonly used name for this club. Fenix down (talk) 17:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Are you kidding? Why do we have to follow ridiculous name?. Do you really think that Ulsan Dolphins is common name?

Each Club name has own tradition and meaning. Ulsan Dolphins is just a tight fit not a global name. Please don't fit the club name on American and European sports club name standard.

I know some English language based football websites use Ulsan Dolphins But they also ignorant of South Korean football club culture and just fit Englilsh language style club name. So, They are not reliable source.

Today, I received the anser Ulsan Mipo Dockyad Dolphins FC officials over the phone. They also said to me Ulsan Dolphins is ridiculus name. Call and check out : Ulsan Mipo Dockyad Dolphins FC - Phone numnber 82-052-209-5353

As I explained, Interested parties - club officials, players, korean football fans never call this club as Ulsan Dolhpins.

This is not a Inter Milan Case. This is just tyranny of a majority vote.

Once agian, Never Ulsan Dolphins is the most commonly used name globally, Just English native or English Language based football websites just prefer this name Because of simpleness and convinienc. They want to fit the name English sports club name style standard regardless of tradition and meaning in club name.

Footwiks (talk) 01:57, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Club name discussion

Ulsan Dolphins = > Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard FC

I accept Fenix down's opinion that official name - Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin FC is so cumbersome for English wikipedia title.

So Let's make simple for English wikipedia title.

I am well aware that Ulsan Dolphis is very simple and good name like Miami Dolphins for English native speakers. But Ulsan Dolphins is result of ignorance about South korean football club culture.

Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dokyad Dolphin FC is typical works team owned Hyundai Mipo Dockyard company in South Korea.

The club name have to inculde Hyundai Mipo Dockyard.

In official full name - Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin FC

Most important element is Hyundai Mipo Dockyard
Second important element is franchise name Ulsan
Third important element is mascot name Dolphin.

If we can't use official name, We have to choose below alternative
Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard FC

Footwiks (talk) 15:41, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

No need for another RM five months after the last one. Fenix down (talk) 17:27, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

And where exactly is this team addressed as "Ulsan Dolphins"? If you Google "Ulsan Dolphins" you get results, yes, but if you actually click on any links you would see that the team is called by 4 different names; "Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockayrd Dolphins FC", "Ulsan Mipo Dockyard", "Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin", and "Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dolphin", the team is NOWHERE (except for worldfootball.net) addressed as the "Ulsan Dolphins", and word "Hyundai" NEEDS to be included since its common for Korean teams to have ownership name (Jeonbuk Hyundai, Suwon Samsung, Ulsan Hyundai etc.) 86.58.36.235 (talk) 08:50, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

See the previous RM, it is clear from ghits that "Ulsan Dolphins", presumably for the sake of brevity, is the preferred terminology in english language sources. Fenix down (talk) 09:18, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Is it "clear"? I dont think so, it looks to me like both enquiries gives more or less the same number of english-based results, and majority of the sources which calls the team "Ulsan Dolphins" are betting sites, and there are few english sources which calls Ulsan Hyundai FC "Ulsan Tigers", is this going to be changed too then? 86.58.36.235 (talk) 09:40, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Fenix down..Previous RM dIscussion went on by few users and Even they not know the south korean football club culture. So Let's discuss again with many users.Footwiks (talk) 09:32, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Fenix down! I have a question. What do you think of this situation. South koreans don't call this club as Ulsan Dolphins. You said to me that this is unreferenced and just my opinion.

Please search by word 울산 돌고래. 울산 돌고래 means Ulsan Dolphins

Results don't have football club. Results have only animal dolphin live near Ulsan.

https://www.google.co.kr/?gws_rd=ssl#q=%EC%9A%B8%EC%82%B0+%EB%8F%8C%EA%B3%A0%EB%9E%98

That is why I insist Ulsan Dolphins are really rediculus name.

Ulsan Mipo Dockyard FC is south korean football club. I think that wikipedia users have to know that Ulsan Dolphins name is not used in South Korea. Ulsan Dolphins name used in Only Wikepedia article title and English language based football website and betting site.

I think that this is very important information. Can I edit this truth on article?

Footwiks (talk) 17:00, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

As I am now asking you for the second time, Please read WP:COMMONNAME, it specifically states: Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. I am well aware that Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin FC is the official name, but it simply is not, in English language sources, as shown clearly by the various ghits the different names produce as I cited in the previous RM, the commonly used name in English language sources to refer to the club, presumably as the official name is inherently cumbersome. If you want to change the name then you need to show a different name that is more commonly used in english language sources. At the moment, I don't see that there is one. It doesn't matter what the club is called officially in Korea when it is called something different in the english speaking world. If you want the article moved, you need to use this thread to demonstrate a different Common Name in english language sources only. Fenix down (talk) 17:58, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Goal.com and FourFourTwo are the ONLY sites that calls the team as "Ulsan Dolphins" (not counting betting sites), while the team is addressed as "Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin" on Soccerpunter.com, Soccerway.com, Transfermarkt.com, www.worldfootball.com (uses both names actually), and www.clubworldranking.com, so how exactly is "Ulsan Dolphins" more frequently used? It is not, it gives more results on google ONLY because of betting sites and the word "dolphin", which can bring some results in combination with "ulsan" that have no connection to football 86.58.36.235 (talk) 20:21, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Fenix down// 86 user's serch result investigation is very significant! That's right. We don't have evidence that "Ulsan Dolphins" is dominant common English name. Many football website use both Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin and Ulsan Dolphins! We can guess that Ulsan Dolphins used due to website page space layout. To fit the club name to narrow score board page space on website, English Football website use Name-Ulsan Dolphins.

I don't think that they are reliable sources! We need not to follow skewed sources. As many times as I say, Ulsan Dolphins is really ridiculus and chimerical name. In terms of English native speakers, Ulsan Dolphins is very good sports team name like Miami Dolphins. But this team is south korean sport team. Dolphin is not important in club name. Hyundai Mipo Dockyard is most important in club name.

Now, 2016, 21 Century. Not time of imperialism. Please don't see only Engllish native speaker's point of view. Every country have their own sports culture and own sports tradition. Please accept cultural relativism.

In conclusion, The name - Ulsan Dolphins don't have this football club's tradition and culture, Because of website page space layout, English native speakers created this name for their convenience.

If we follow this name on wikipedia. what a shame.

I really pefectly understood WP:COMMONNAME. I prefer Inter Milan to F.C. Internazionale Milano. In South Korea, we also called as Inter Milan long time ago. And I accept that Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin FC is so cumbersome for English wikipedia title. So I recommend Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard FC

I think you have misunderstanding about WP:COMMONNAME.

WP:COMMONNAME consensus don't mean that we can use ridiculus and chimerical name on article title.

I explained many times in detail why Ulsan Dolphins is ridiculus and chimerical name.

Footwiks (talk) 15:23, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I basically Agree with Footwiks's idea. As a life-long K/N-league fan, I never heard of Ulsan Dolphins. It sounds like a baseball team name though. To give some evidence, Ulsan Mipo has been the most widely used abbreviation in both English and Korean (Hangul), along with Ulsan Mipo Dockyard. In Google search, "Ulsan Mipo" searches 60,000+ results, while "Ulsan Dolphins" gets 45,000+ results.--Raynor999 (talk) 16:27, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

You have done, many times, repetitively and at great length. If you desire a proper RM, maybe you should let things lie now and see whether any other editors come in with their opinions. Fenix down (talk) 15:26, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 3 August 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard FC per nom. I realize this is sort of controversial, so let me explain. The evidence (mostly in form of assertions) points that "Ulsan Dolphins" is a casual reference used by some sporting websites, rather than a trully established WP:COMMONNAME in English (which might not even exist for a relatively obscure Korean club). I find the Footwiks argument about WP:CONCISE convincing enough – while we favor brief names, that should not be on the expense on accuracy. No such user (talk) 14:53, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

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Ulsan Dolphins → Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard FC – Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard FC is typical works team in South Korea. Club name have to contain Hyundai Mipo Dockyard! Dolphin is not important element in this club's name. Reasons are explained in detail above discussion. Footwiks (talk) 10:14, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

• Support – in English sources, the club is addressed by both names (Ulsan Dolphins and Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard), and neither of the two is prevailing, so in this case the club should be called by the official name and not by the name that is just easier to understand 86.58.36.235 (talk) 10:25, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment: That's contrary to our current policy, see WP:concise and WP:official names, and my vote below. Andrewa (talk) 18:11, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
    • Comment: Official name is Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin FC. I know official name is cumbersome and I also want consice name. In this club name, Dolphins is not important. So I want to move consice Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard FC. Don't misunderstand that I want to move article title to official name.

And Please check out the WP:concise The goal of conciseness is to balance brevity with sufficient information to identify the topic to a person familiar with the subject area.

Ulsan Dolphins don't have sufficient information to identify the topic. This club is not American sport club like Miami Dolphins. I know, In Miami Dolphins name, Dolphin is very important and simply called Dolphins. But it's not the same thing. As I explanind again. Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard FC is typical works team in South Korea In order to give Important and sufficient information to identify the topic, Article have to contain Hyundai Mipo Dockyard company name, not Dolphins.

This club's original name was just Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Football Club. later on, Hyundai Mipo Dockyard company located in Ulsan and In the near see Ulsan, there is Dolphins. So Added Ulsan and Dolphins in the club name. Now, simply called Hyundai Mipo Dockyard FC in South Korea.

In this club name, Master is Hyundai Mipo Dockyard and Slave is Ulsan and Dolphins.

Please don't see this issue by the English native speakers view, This club is South Korea football club, This club name have endemic South Korean sport cluture.

I hope you undetsatnd what I mean.Footwiks (talk) 03:47, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose – No indication that the support vote above is true, WP:COMMONNAME was confirmed by weakish consensus above only a few months ago. Not sure why another RM has started. Fenix down (talk) 11:28, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment – I dont know what exactly was proved, because if you would actually look at the google results you would see that both searches gives only a few reliable results (since the club is not very known outside korea), and its like four websites calls the club "ulsan dolphins" while the other 3-4 are calling it "hyundai mipo dockyard", the TOTAL number of google results are completely irrelevant since outside of first three pages on google you would get only betting sites which pretty much just copy paste whole schedule from each other, thats why every betting site is using "ulsan dolphins"...by the way, on the link to WP Commonname that you provided, it reads " (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources"), so how is this "significant majority"? 86.58.36.235 (talk) 12:02, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. Current name complies with WP:AT in all respects. Discussion above misses the point completely. The place to educate is in the article body, not the title. In the title, we use concise, unambiguous English as attested by usage. Andrewa (talk) 18:08, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment: You have misunderstanding aobut WP:AT. WP:AT consensus does not mean we can use ridiculus and chimerical name. As I explained many times, In view of English Speaker, Ulsan Dolphins is very good name like Miami Dolphins. Very short, So This name is very convient to fix the score board at Football Website and Bettingsite. Ulsan Dolphins is just chimerical name for English speakers' only convience. One more, Not Dolphins, Dolphin. To fix the English style sports club name. English football webstie, English betting website, English Wikepedia are creating new name in disregard of proper noun and endemic Korean style sport club name.

English football website and English football betting site created new chimerical name Ulsan Dolphins. Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard staffs can't have power correct them and English football website and English football betting site staffs don't mind this club's name carefully. Because Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard FC is unknown and small club.

Wikepedia users remember and know this naming history that how 'Ulsan Dolphins is created. As I say before, In South Korea, Anybody don't call this club as Ulsan Dolphins, If you googling in Korean - 울산 돌고래 = Ulsan Dolphins, Results are Only animal Dolphins. When people can't communicate globally, there are many chimerical names like this.

But now 2016 year and moreover here is wikipedia. We have collective Intelligence. Why do we follow the chimerical name to fix the narrow score board space in English football website and English football betting site. We have to filter this case.

If we follow and support chimerical name Ulsan Dolphins in title, Reliability of Wikipedia reduce.Footwiks (talk) 03:18, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Reliability of Wikipedia is in general best enhanced by following our naming policy, which defers neither to the official name nor the culture associated with other languages. No case to answer. Andrewa (talk) 20:14, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Please read carefully. This request is not to move to official name. Official name is Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin(Not Dolphins) FC.

I want to move to Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard FC. Do you think that our naming policy is to follow name which football website and betting site made for their conviniance to use scorboard! And Please check out below 86.58.36.235 investigation. According to a investigation, Ulsan Dolphins is not the dominant name on the internet world use English launguae.

Serch result investigation by 86.58.36.235
Goal.com and FourFourTwo are the ONLY sites that calls the team as "Ulsan Dolphins" (not counting betting sites), while the team is addressed as "Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin" on Soccerpunter.com, Soccerway.com, Transfermarkt.com, www.worldfootball.com (uses both names actually), and www.clubworldranking.com, so how exactly is "Ulsan Dolphins" more frequently used? It is not, it gives more results on google ONLY because of betting sites and the word "dolphin", which can bring some results in combination with "ulsan" that have no connection to football

To accept Ulsan Dolphins as English common name, We need more and various results by reliable sources, for example, Newspaper, TV and so on. But Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard FC is not famous club over the World. We don't have enough source. There is just a few English Football Websites and Betting sites whitch call this club as Ulsan Dolphins to fit the their website scoreboard layout.

Finally, Ulsan Dolphins don't have reliability as common name.

In addition to, Ulsan Dolphins is chimerical name - firstly not Dolphins, Dolphin is correct. Please refer to below crest! Where is name -Dolphins? from? Crest have only Dolphin. This club is south korea association football club. not American football team. Why this club make american football team like Miami Dolphins? File:Ulsan Hyundai Mipo Dockyard Dolphin.png

Footwiks (talk) 00:02, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.