Talk:Unfriendly countries list

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 08:20, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that the Unfriendly Countries List is a countermeasure against 48 countries that sanctioned Russia after their invasion of Ukraine? Source: TASS
  • ALT1:... that countries on the Unfriendly Countries List are subject to certain diplomatic and trade restrictions with Russia? Source: TASS
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Ignacy Korwin-Milewski

Created by Haha169 (talk). Self-nominated at 17:21, 27 March 2022 (UTC).

• Article new enough at time of nomination and length sufficient. QPQ done, no copyvio detected. Well-documented and referenced, as uncontroversial as you can probably get out of the current war. I would go with ALT1, or a hook like below that contrasts some countries:
  • ALT2: ... that Russia's Unfriendly Countries List includes the United States, European Union, and San Marino?

Juxlos (talk) 08:45, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your review! --haha169 (talk) 05:42, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

ALT2 to T:DYK/P5

The list section is a jumbled mess

What's the point of having half the countries listed with flags and the other half not being listed with flags? regardless if they are territories or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IHeartVeronica (talk • contribs) 06:46, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

While they are listed out for reader convenience in the footnote, they aren't in the main list with flags since the EU countries are not actually specifically named on the list. --haha169 (talk) 20:59, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Hungary was added in 2022

The article contains a mistake. Hungary was added to the list in 2022. Sources

• https://hungarytoday.hu/russia-hungary-friendship-relations-unfriendly-countries/
• https://news.yahoo.com/russia-puts-hungary-unfriendly-countries-123500975.html
• https://24.hu/kulfold/2022/03/07/magyarorszag-is-felkerult-a-moszkva-altal-baratsagtalannak-tartott-orszagok-listajara/

The article links to the following newsweek article, but it is wrong. https://www.newsweek.com/russia-hungary-putin-orban-unfriendly-countries-1791498 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.23.239.207 (talk) 12:20, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

It's not clear what changes you are advocating and what mistake was made. This list correctly includes Hungary. --haha169 (talk) 03:36, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

To clarify, your article clearly states that Hungary was listed under the EU prior to being individually listed in 2023. --haha169 (talk) 23:39, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Crimea

Russia's annexation of Crimea has not been recognized by anyone but a handful of Russia's allies. Should it be included as part of Russia in the map? If so does that also mean that the parts of Ukraine currently claimed by Russia should also be part of that map? What of the land Russia claims in Ukraine that is now under Ukrainian control? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AmbientMorality (talk • contribs) 15:12, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes and no. As it is technically disputed territory it would be no one’s. Let me explain.Ukraine was the owner of that land until Russia annexed it but due to 90% of the world not recognizing it as annexed territory, therefore Russia’s territory, it is disputed territory. Jumperstriker (talk) 15:47, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

The name should inform that the list is Russian

Russian Unfriendly Countries List or

Unfriendly Countries List (Russia).

Xx236 (talk) 08:26, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Typically Wikipedia article names don't add geographic or other qualifiers to the article topic's official name unless multiple articles use the exact same name. Since that isn't a problem for this article as of now, there's no need to qualify Russia as there is only one unfriendly countries list notable enough to have an article. --haha169 (talk) 02:41, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Without a qualifier, it sounds like something that people should "just know" is related to Russia. By similar logic one could add a page of "Unpleasant Flavors" with proper citations, without acknowledging up front who finds them unpleasant.

I would argue this is not a "typical" case Cellmaker (talk) 20:49, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

The article acknowledges up front in the lead that it is about Russia. --haha169 (talk) 06:06, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Greenland sanctioned?

Hello I have heard that Denmark is sanctioned as a separate state now (next to its previous sanction as an EU-member state). Does this mean that Greenland should be marked as sanctioned territory too now?

With kind regards Jens 2A02:3036:201:FDB0:892:7F81:DCB3:704E (talk) 10:03, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Interesting question. While your question has merit, I'd defer to what reliable sources are saying about the issue, and as no one has mentioned Greenland I would argue leaving them out unless more information comes to light. --haha169 (talk) 01:19, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

That's not a reasonable approach. While being self-governing Greenland is a part of Denmark, constitutionally defined as a unitary state, and foreign and security policy is not a devolved matter. This is complicated somewhat by Greenland not being in the EU so matters that solely rely on Denmark's EU-membership don't apply, but if the Danish state is listed in any context that's independent of the EU that will always include the two self-governing areas in the North Atlantic in the same way as you don't need a source for the UK including Northern Ireland. If Russia specifically puts the Kingdom of Denmark on a list of hostile countries that of course includes all parts of the Danish state and it'll be hard to find a source for this since it's obviously not something the Russian government will specify as you don't list all self-governing parts of a state when you refer to it. Batmacumba (talk) 08:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Given that Russia specifically listed out self-governing territories of the UK, I think the omission of Greenland would appear to be deliberate. --haha169 (talk) 07:41, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Anti-Western sentiment?

One of the Categories of this article is "Anti-Western sentiment" but this is about the list of the countries for those who condemn Russia - Jjpachano (talk) 23:46, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

to me it looks like it's about countries that the Russian government doesn't like. Not a kitsune (talk) 16:15, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Why are Greece and Denmark listed if there is already EU?

Also on the net they are listed besides EU, why? 87.18.222.1 (talk) 18:08, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

It says on the article itself: some countries were individually added separately. 104.175.74.27 (talk) 02:50, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Suggest name change

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Unfriendly countries list. The proposed title is not supported by policy and has a slight consensus against it. Moved to sentence case as suggested. (closed by non-admin page mover) – MaterialWorks 11:01, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

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Unfriendly Countries List → Russia's unfriendly countries list - Other countries have a list of unfriendly countries - eg Lithuania (url=https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1658381/lithuania-puts-russia-belarus-on-its-list-of-hostile-countries) and Belarus also has its own list. Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 23:25, 22 August 2023‎ (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 11:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support per WP:RECOGNIZABLE. I think there is a case for the Russian list to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, but I personally think it would be better served as a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT with a more recognizable title. estar8806 (talk) ★ 18:18, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• Partial Oppose—while it's true that other nations have their own respective "hostile nations" list, Russia's list is arguably the most recognizable and notable. Other countries that have their own list are not as prominent in comparison. I recommended that until there are other Wiki pages about other countries' "Unfriendly Countries List", such as Lithuania's or perhaps Belarus (per Estar8806), it shouldn't be moved. - MateoFrayo (talk) 14:05, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Partial Oppose-- I agree with MateoFrayo -- Iri1388 (talk) 21:13, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Agree with MateoFraeyo - with other respective lists not even having articles of their own, clarifying language in the title is unnecessary. --haha169 (talk) 08:13, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

• Weak support per WP:ASTONISH. How does the title get across that this is related to Russia in any way? If I just saw the title, I'd be confused and would have to click on the article to have anywhere near an idea of what it's about. Sure, it defines it in the first sentence, but that doesn't mean it's not ASTONISHing. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 03:43, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think the purpose of ASTONISH is to apply to titles if the subject of the article is so named. Supercock for example is an article, not Supercock (film). ASTONISH's purpose is to write prose in a straightforward, non-provacative way, not govern article names.

  The applicable policy here is WP:PRECISE, which says that absent clear naming criteria (which this article lacks), to unambiguously define to scope of the article without getting more precise than that. Since the article's name is literally just the name of the Russian regulation, adding "Russian" to the name is "getting more precise".--haha169 (talk) 08:34, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support per WP:RECOGNIZABLE, precision, and current title is case of WP:ASTONISH. —usernamekiran (talk) 08:35, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think WP:RECOGNIZABLE applies—if anything, the "Unfriendly Countries List" is more recognizable as the list released by the Russian government rather than a list of each nation's unfriendly countries list. The other WP pages make a fair point, but make sure you're not being over-the-board precise either (Which would be the case if you add "Russian" to the only notable "Unfriendly Countries List"). - MateoFrayo (talk) 21:52, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: this should be moved to sentence case regardless.~TPW 17:49, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  I would consider "Unfriendly Countries List" to be a proper noun as it is the name of the list. Proper nouns like Entity List are in title case as well. --haha169 (talk) 20:20, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  Here's a recent mention in a reliable source, where the term is not capitalized. ~TPW 20:44, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

  You're right. Most of the reliable sources refer to it in sentence case. --haha169 (talk) 05:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

  Proper nouns have to be single words. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:50, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Yes, there are other countries that have this, but Russia's is considerably more notable and more likely to be recognized. Plus, the proposed new title just doesn't sound right to my ears. 47.227.95.73 (talk) 05:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

• Alternative Unfriendly countries list. Per WP:TITLEDAB, when no actual conflict in article titles exists, WP:CONCISE takes precedence over unnecessary precision. This also appears to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC even if other articles actually existed. This list is descriptive and not reasonably considered a proper noun. Per WP:NCCAPS, MOS:CAPS and other comments re capitalisation in sources, it should be written in sentence case. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

  Agree with this --haha169 (talk) 19:10, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom. Decpatilaise, as it is not a proper name, or a composition title. Include “Russia” and Russia is central to the definition of the topic. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:53, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Your comment does not address the arguments made above about how adding "Russia" is overly precise and against established article title guidelines. "Russia unfriendly countries list" is also not the common name of the topic, so adding the precision is further unnecessary. --haha169 (talk) 20:41, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

“Russia” is not overly precise, but is essential for the title to be meaningful, especially on noting that the current is not a proper name, a proper noun, or a composition title, should be sentence case, and be recognised for a descriptive title. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:54, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Russia's list is the primary topic of all "unfriendly country lists" and is the only one with established notability to have a Wikipedia article. The five criteria of article titles is quite clear that article titles should unambiguously identify a topic without being overly precise. There are no other "unfriendly country lists" to distinguish from that it becomes necessary to add a country name. Additionally, neither reliable news sources nor Russian government sources generally identify the list as the "Russian unfriendly countries list". At most they make references to Russia adding to "their" list, or the government announced additions to "Russia's" list.

It's also not clear to me why not being a proper noun means the name must have a country name as a qualifier. There is no policy that states this. There is an article for crepe, which is not a proper noun, not French crepe. Same with Entity List, not U.S. Entity List. --haha169 (talk) 02:28, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

primary topic of all "unfriendly country lists" is a ridiculous concept. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:00, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

No less ridiculous than the concept of a primary topic at all. It's not like every country has an unfriendly countries list. Russia basically invented it, and a small number of other countries copied the idea but without the level of exposure or coverage as the original. --haha169 (talk) 15:54, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Disagree. Forcing the PrimaryTopic theory onto every recent descriptive phrase is much more ridiculous. And it’s translated, and on the native language Wikipedia it is already disambiguated, and in sentence case.

PrimaryTopic makes sense in many cases, particularly where there is a worldwide, or at least this-language-wide dominant meaning for a term (less so for phrases), and then there are other obscure uses of the same term.

Just because PrimaryTopic sometimes makes sense doesn’t mean that PrimaryTopic has to always be the driving force for technically minimalist titles.

This article is about something about Russia more than it is about the countries on the list. Russia belongs in the title, unquestionably if you have any sense of the purpose of a title. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:33, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended Protection

Why's this article under Extended Protection? - MateoFrayo (talk) 13:11, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Probably because people kept on making unsourced edits to add countries that aren't on the list. That and also a lot of (most likely unintentional) vandalism that messed up the table formatting. --haha169 (talk) 02:01, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah KK, gotcha. - MateoFrayo (talk) 18:06, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

List

The lede says there are 49 states in that list, but the list further down the page only lists 30. Is there a reason for that ? Alien333 (talk) 20:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

@Alien333, The European Union is included in this list, meaning that all EU member states are collectively included. But this list includes some EU members that were added to this list by Russia individually. -- Iri1388 (talk) 20:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the info. Alien333 (talk) 20:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

States Russia does not recognise Taiwan

Taiwan is not recognised as a country by any major power. The way this is written makes it seems that this is specific to Russia. It is not. Needs to be updated to explain that, or show the list as published by Russia. 2A00:23C6:A119:D101:C94F:9913:B539:A8D3 (talk) 00:03, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

This is about Russia's list. Who cares about other countries? 97.133.167.45 (talk) 01:59, 14 October 2024 (UTC)