Talk:Valencian nationalism

Good start for the new entry, but a lot of further work is needed

It is good that someone has started a new entry for valencianism, which was certainly needed in Wikipedia. So far it includes only information about Blaverism, so it must be enhanced in order to cover all forms of valencianism. We could work based on the already existing entries on Spanish and Catalan/Valencian wikipedias. --Carles Noguera (talk) 09:56, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Mmmmm, sadly it is not a new entry. It is just a copy paste of the Blaverism article. I vote to decide which of the two names is prefered (Valencianism or blaverism) and erase the other article.--MauritiusXXVII ^{(Aut Doce, Aut Disce, Aut Discede!)} 17:48, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Blavero is used, basically, as an insult used in certain circles. Truth is that blaveros see themselves as Valencianistes instead, and that includes different shades of Valencian nationalism, from regionalism to independentism.

I'd keep both articles and make a good distinction between blavero and Valencianism. Thus, this one article (Valencianism) should be improved to include the Catalanist Valencianistes, to show the other side of the river. Then the "blaverism" article should be narrowed down to explain that it is, basically, an insult from one side of the river addressed to the other. Mountolive _{le déluge} 19:00, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I've modified the introduction of the article, mainly catched from the spanish wikipedia. Also I've added something about the early movement, and a reference to the valencianism during the spanish civil war. --81.202.70.126 (talk) 13:55, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree with Mountolive's comments. That was, in fact, my point of view when I dealt with the contributions of the new user Valsempre. The edits of the anonimous user are made in the good direction in my opinion (with an important drawback: as blaverist do see themselves as valencianist, their position should also be reflected in the text), but much work is still needed. Unfortunately, in this period I almost have no time to contribute. :( If nobody can improve the article in the following days, I'll try to adress it in the near future. --Carles Noguera (talk) 19:06, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Carles. Well, while Valsempere only referred to blavero Valencianism, now the anon changed it to refer only to Catalanist Valencianism. Both rival options clash, and what this article oughtta show are both, not just one (either) for both consider themselves "true" Valencianists. Mountolive _{le déluge} 19:28, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

That's exactly what I meant. --Carles Noguera (talk) 19:32, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Cool, Carles. I might give it some work tomorrow to start walking the walk. Mountolive _{le déluge} 19:47, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Fine! So, since you are Valencian and surely know the stuff better than me, could you take a look at the corresponding entries in Catalan and Spanish wikipedias? The two of them try to deal with all kinds of valencianism. Maybe you could assess whether those articles are a good material we could use to build the English one. --Carles Noguera (talk) 10:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I started some work from scratch before seeing this post. The idea is good, but, on the other side, I think it is also fine to start from scratch something to avoid biases from other wikipedias (I have one particular wikipedia in mind with huge amounts of bias regarding this topic...guess which one? ;)

This said, you are perfectly free to translate yourself what you deem as appropiate, and the fact that I am Valencian actually doesnt give me any extra authority on the matter, rather on the contrary.... Mountolive _{le déluge} 10:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

This entry says almost nothing about "valencian nationalism" itself (catalanist, blaverist [although most blaverists don't revindicate nationalism, at least they did not at all during the transition] or others, that's not the problem). It's mostly about the conflict during the transition. Moreover, the focus on the opposition beetween blaveros and catalanists makes forget that many valencianists are not catalanist (=defend the political union of catalan countries) : saying catalan and valencian are the same language is NOT catalanism, it's just the widely admitted scientist point of view (see any serious dictionnary, encyclopedia, etc.). Actually this conflict has no real scientific bases (see for exemple Encyclopædia Britannica : "Spain" : "in the 1980s there were politically motivated disputes as to whether Valencian was a Catalan dialect or a distinct language."). Making believe that the valencian world is divided beetween blaveros and catalanists is just the blavero POV (anyone who doesn't agree with them should be immediately considered as catalanist). During the transition, the blaveros didn't assume valencian nationalism (=consider the Land of Valencia is a nation, which is different from single "valencianism"=defense the Land of Valencia, culturally or politically). This article gives an excessively simplificated vision of the situation and says almost nothing out of the transition process. Xic667 (talk) 20:34, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

The Catalan theory should go first and have more weight (WP:Weight)

I suggest to give more relevance to the Catalanists due to the last changes in the politics of the Valencian Country. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 21:32, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

The last changes in the politics of Valencia show that the so-called "catalanism" and the blaverism are marginal movements. We should listen to the claims of Xic667 in the previous section and consider that the entry says nothing about Valencianism but only about the Conflict in the Transition.--Coentor (talk) 21:40, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

The article should be expanded. However I don't share your view. IMO the current changes (i.e. the rise of Coalició Compromís-Podemos) show a clearly approach to the Catalan movement, since these parties support the right to self-determination. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 22:26, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Blaverism (a regionalist movement) has its own Wikipedia page, "Fusterianism" doesn't. I request to apply WP:Weight. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 22:49, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Catalanism has its own article, and for sure Coalició Compromís is not a catalan or pancatalan party. I could admit its a fusterian party, but the basic problem is that this article says nothing about valencianism, but only about the Batalla de València o Batalla de Valencia (as it was already noticed bu another user in January, 2013). Even still, I agree with you that this article has a problem of Weight that We should fix.--Coentor (talk) 14:34, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Possible solutions

JaumeR has stated, in my opinion correctly, that this article has a problem in WP:Weight. I believe that the very last commentary in this discussion before Jaume's arrival, the commentary written by Xic667 in January, 2013, pointed (also in my opinion correctly) the main issue: this article talks about the Battle of Valencia (1977-1982) instead of being a true article about the movement. So my very first proposal is to create an article about the Battle of Valencia (Q2890288) using the content of this article, and then We could agree about new content for this article.--Coentor (talk) 14:45, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your proposal Coentor. I agree with you we should concile both positions in some way in a section or in a new page, however I don't agree to list blavers as nationalist. A Valencian nationalist is a person who agrees with the UN declaration of human rights and the right to self-determination, blavers don't believe in this. I think this page should only talk about the Valencians who support these ideas.

This article currently mixes regionalism (blaverism) and nationalism, so I suggest to remove most info about regionalists too (Info about the regionalist is also duplicated– see blaverism) — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 23:14, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I'll recover the labels you deleted because this article is outdated and biased. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 23:33, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

That could be a solution, but maybe We should create the article for the Battle of Valencia before and then try to fix this article.--Coentor (talk) 23:48, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

If by fixing this article you mean removing all or most information about the Valencian regionalists, I agree, if you don't mean that I oppose. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 23:54, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Watch the first version of the new article. I propose You to make together this new article, starting by moving all information from "Valencian nationalism" which has nothing to do with the Valencianism itself, but with the very history of the transition, and once We have seen which information from this article can be held in the historical one, complete the "Valencian nationalism" article with information and structure from both ca:Nacionalisme valencià and fr:Valencianisme, which are the most complete version in any language.--Coentor (talk) 00:10, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for translating the Battle of Valencia. I will help you as much as I can. We should also start by using the right labels for every aspect of our nationalism and culture — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 04:23, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I've created the following links and disambiguation pages:

• Valencian regionalism / Regionalism in Valencia
• Fusterianism
• Nationalisms in Valencia

I would instead of using redirections, translate ca:regionalisme valencià and ca:Fusterianisme. Best regards.--Coentor (talk) 10:10, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

JaumeR You can check the translation and the use of templates, if you have some time.--Coentor (talk) 12:33, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't think you are aware of the current situation in the Valencian Country Coentor, also we don't need more duplicate articles that's why I created those links

Just out of curiosity, do you know the definition of nationalism? And do you know the difference between nationalism and regionalism? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 13:24, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Valencianism vs Valencian nationalism

I propose to split these concepts like in the Galician case — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 23:47, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Disagree. That would only make bigger the problem. It is better to create an article for every concept, to avoid claims that "this article is biased in this or that other direction".--Coentor (talk) 23:52, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I think it would solve the problem, Valencianism is the meeting point of regionalists and nationalists. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 09:47, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I proceded to split the term as in Galicia as you started working without discussing in a non democrative way and you removed the labels I added. Also it's non sense we mix nationalism and regionalism. Are we bipolar? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 13:47, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going to continue this discussions with insults, that's the only thing sure.--Coentor (talk) 15:07, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not insulting you at all, don't get my wrong, that's why I used we. I'm just stating the fact that at present this article (Valencian nationalism) doesn't have a clear personality. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 15:12, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not edit warring, I just clarified my comment before you edited. Could you please discuss and stop making changes. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 15:45, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I support Jaume's thesis Masclet~enwiki (talk) 15:56, 24 December 2015 (UTC)