Talk:Franco-Provençal

Orthograph

The right orthograph should be "francoprovençal" (not with "-") as preconised by the linguists since the 60's. Anyone can make the change ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.10.137.84 (talk) 20:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Re : Franco-Provençal (Francoprovençal) :

The label « Franco-Provençal » (or « Francoprovençal ») has been used since the late 19th century to identify this language in published articles. (Native speakers informally identify their language as « Patois » or « Sarde » if asked, in my experience working primarily in the Chautagne, Bugey, and Albanais areas.) However, many passionate regionalists strongly feel, with some justification, the label « Franco-Provençal » is unsatisfactory because the language is neither French (Oïl) nor Occitan (Oc) nor a hybrid. Many of these regionalists have adopted label « Arpitan », rooted in the native word for the Alps, to identify the language. (See the Swiss website: <http://www.arpitania.ch>.) However, the label « Arpitan » has yet to be adopted by scholarly journals, major publications on linguistics, or governmental organizations.

It is now official in ISO 639-3. See Ethnologue. Thnidu (talk) 06:03, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

See Naomi Nagy -- The Faetar dialect in Southern Italy (where the dot on your map is), Faeto and surrounding areas, is Franco-Provencal. Source: http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/sssocio/proceedings/Nagy.pdf [My name is Victor Volpe @ Vic.Volpe@gmail.com.] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.60.230.104 (talk) 07:42, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Why Calabria?

A question regarding the regions where the language is spoken: Why is Calabria on the list? Is there a historical reason? Curious...

Not the place, Calabria; "sarde", a local name for "patouès"

Several years ago, the mayor of Motz (Savoie) made use of few words with which I was unfamiliar during a conversation I had with him, including « cârta » and « mappa » for "carte". When I commented on this, he chuckled. Then he said, they were old "sarde" words and that he had spoken "sarde" as a child. This was his term for his Franco-Provençal patois (« patouès »). - - The dukes of Savoy, which ruled from Chambéry, and later Turin, acquired the title of "King of Sardinia" when they exchanged Sicily for Sardinia in the 18th century. The correct name of the nation became: "Kingdom of Sardinia, Cyprus, and Jerusalem, Duchy of Savoy, Principality of Piedmont." (The nation's title appears on its coinage. Buy it on E-Bay.) In 1860, Savoy and Nice were "annexed by" France. ("Reattached" is the word preferred by France.) Shortly after that time, Victor-Emmanuel II (1820-1878) of the House of Savoy, King of Sardinia (et al.) became the first king of unified Italy, and Turin became the first capital. - - The House of Savoy ruled the Chautagne, which includes the town of Motz, and all of the Savoy before 1860. Citizens became soldiers in the Sardinian (Savoy-Piedmont) army, headquartered in Turin. - - In light of this region's history, it is not surprising than the mayor labeled his patois "sarde", although it appears to be a misnomer to outsiders. - - Of course, Franco-Provençal patois was not spoken on the island of Sardinia.

Language Name

The Linguasphere Observatory (Observatoire Linguistique) has published a statement in The Linguasphere Register (Dalby, 1999/2000) on p. 402 about the name of the language: Franco-Provençal, "Gallo-Romance"-E., Arpitan, Romand under the code for "Notes on Nomenclature". It states (quote): "Romand is a potential new cover-name (by analogy with Suisse Romand=«Gallo-Romance Switzerland»), to replace the inappropriate compound 'franco-provençal'." - - Considering the international recognition Linguasphere receives for its work (and that the name Romand is being advanced for the language by working professionals), I feel that new redirect pages for "Romand" and "Romand language" should be added that point to "Franco-Provençal language." Does anyone have objections? If not, would someone more capable than I am please add them. - - Also, are there any objections to rewriting the Franco-Provençal Dialects section to conform to Linguasphere? This will be a somewhat significant change, however Linguasphere has the only scientific classification of the dialects of which I am aware. Please post comments (and please forgive my written English, which is not as good as it should be.) Charvex 10:25, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Could cause confusion with "romandie" (there's a english wikipedia article under "romandy"), where Franco-Provencal is no longer spoken.

See also the relevant Ethnologue page. -- SIL International, which maintains Ethnologue, is the ISO's Registration Authority for Standard 639-3:2007. Franco-Provençal is the established English-language name. --Thnidu (talk) 20:46, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Ethnologue now uses "Arpitan". --Thnidu (talk) 06:05, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Dialect List section prior to rewrite:

Franco-Provençal Dialect List: Classification of Franco-Provençal dialect divisions is challenging despite regional similarities. Each canton and valley uses its own vernacular without standardization. Difficult intelligibility among dialects was noted as early as 1807 by Grillet.

France Bressan Burgondan Dauphinois Forèzien Jurassien Lyonnais Savorêt Savoyard

Switzerland Genevois Fribourgeois Neuchâtelois Valaisan Vaudois

Italy Faetar (Faitare) Valdôtain (Valdotèn)

Transitional Dialects (France) Charolais (Franco-Provençal → Langue d'Oïl) Mâconnais (Franco-Provençal → Langue d'Oïl)

Charvex 07:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Fixed photo caption.

The caption text for the road sign photo was incorrectly marked up. Part of the text appeared at the head of the adjacent bullet list in the maintext instead of in the caption. I corrected this error so the text now appears correctly. I also delinked the cross-references in the caption to Haute-Savoie, France, and the 1990s.

Bresse

From friends who often visit the town of Bourg-en-Bresse I have heard that in the Bresse region the local dialects are still widely used, even among young people. Can anybody confirm that? Unoffensive text or character 09:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Move

A lot of people aren't happy with the name "Franco-Provençal": Francoprovençal, Arpitan, and Romand have been proposed. How about a move? "Franco(-)provençal" isn't the best since this language is neither French or Provençal, nor a hybrid dialect of the two. This name only leads to confusion and problems. Romand is better but is only used in Switzerland and so leaves the languages speakers in France and Italy on the side. Arpitan on the other hand represents all speakers, doesn't identify it with any unrelated languages, and is recognised by the speakers themselves (while it is constantly gaining wider acceptance in the greater community). I therefore propose that this page be moved to Arpitan language. ChrisDHDR 17:21, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

As author of most of this article, I am strongly opposed to a Move for several reasons, but primarily because the name « Arpitan » is not supported by any published work on linguistics in the English language. (There is not even consensus about how it should be spelled: « Arpitan », or « Arpetan » as someone forced through for InterWiki links.) More of my reply is at: User talk:ChrisDHDR, under the heading: « Move ». Best regards, Charvex (talk) 23:59, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Ethnologue now uses "Arpitan". See also above. --Thnidu (talk) 06:05, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Supposed orthography: « arpetan »

I am not aware of ANY reliable printed source – not one – that supports the name « arpetan » (with an E). ——— The spelling « arpitan » (with an I) is mentioned only in passing in a couple of reliable sources to my knowledge, and only as a secondary name or as a footnote. The main heading for the name of this language is « Franco-Provençal » in all reliable sources, including Dalby (2000) cited in the article, and Kloss's « Linguistic composition of the nations of the world », published by Laval University (p. 327) found here. Both « arpetan » orthographies simply are not a standard reference names for this language. ——— I am aware that passionate individuals and Wiki Bots are running rampant through Wikipédia making changes, but they have no basis. This is completely contrary to more than 130 years of published, scholarly literature. Charvex (talk) 04:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, look at this map, posted by it.Wikipédia by the « aliance culturèla arpitanna » (notice no "E" in the adjectival spelling at the bottom left), and look at the orthography of « arpitan » (with an I) in the red boxes! (This image was uploaded on 1 September 2009 !) Everyone is spelling this « nouveau » name the way she or he likes it. --- The only acceptable orthography for the name is found in reliable sources on languages and linguistics. Please leave this article and Wikipedia alone with your personal favorite spellings. Thank you. Charvex (talk) 10:00, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

excellent article on Oct. 20, 2010

Time takes its toll on old Swiss language, swissinfo.ch, Oct. 20, 2010.

‘ . . . Traditionally there has been something of the idea that these dialects, commonly referred to as patois, are “bad French” – a notion which Andres Kristol, director of the dialectology centre at Neuchâtel University, describes as “evidently absurd”.

‘Our old language is as interesting and as well formed as Romansh in Graubünden, for example,” he told swissinfo.ch - adding that it is also as different from French as Romansh is. . . ’

and some other good stuff in the article, too. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 19:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 06 September 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Per consensus below and also objections raised above, the present name seems to be favoured. (non-admin closure)  — Amakuru (talk) 11:19, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

---

Franco-Provençal language → Arpitan language – Endonym of the language. – Article editor (talk) 04:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. Natg 19 (talk) 17:50, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Moved from RMTR speedy moves

• Object to RMTR speedy move This was already suggested on the talk page, where it has already had opposition lodged to it, therefore it is not uncontroversial. Thus it does not qualify for a speedy move. -- 70.51.202.113 (talk) 04:39, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
  • @ChrisDHDR, Charvex, and Thnidu:

@Article editor and 70.51.202.113: This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:05, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support since Arpitan is both the endonym and the named referred to by Ethnologue. --Article editor (talk) 05:55, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose We don't go by endonym (Français, Deutch, Nihongo, Zhongguohua, 'Arabiyya, Rossia, Español, Italiano) but by English. "Arpitan" doesn't even show up on Ngrams.[1] — kwami (talk) 20:12, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Kwami. Seems the current title is the most common name. Jenks24 (talk) 10:36, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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hospitalis

Le mot français issu du latin hospitalis est hôtel, non hôpital. Hôpital est un mot savant, c'est à dire artificiel, refait sur le latin et ne peut être comparé dans le cadre des évolutions linguistiques présentées ici. stefjourdan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.172.236.231 (talk) 10:02, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Move to Francoprovençal (without the hyphen)

Would anyone oppose moving the article from Franco-Provençal to Francoprovençal? I understand it would be a good compromise in relation to those who favored moving the article to "Arpitan" saying the form with the hyphen suggests the language is actually a blending of two other languages (French and Provençal). And, as the article itself states, "Suppression of the hyphen between the two parts of the language name in French (francoprovençal) was generally adopted following a conference at the University of Neuchâtel in 1969". Arrasarro (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Phonology

@Fdom5997: You expanded the phonology section a couple of years ago, and also made this edit[2]. It seems that you're description is about a specific variety of Franco-Provençal. Can you specify in the text which one it is? This will help to clarify the passage that is not just confusing for @Erutuon[3], but also for me. Austronesier (talk) 23:57, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Hello, yes. I had just added some sources that list the popular dialects of Val d'Aosta, Savoyard, and Lyon in which the two vowel sounds exist as distinct phonemes. Fdom5997 (talk) 02:25, 19 November 2022 (UTC)