Talk:Vikings

Dental health

Swedish archeological investigations show that Vikings had horrible dental health – odontogenic infections and tooth decay were common. Majority of vikings were likely plagued by permanent toothaches. I wanted to add this to the article, but found no suitable location.
It could be good to have a section on viking health, including dental health.

Edit: then again, other sources report that vikings had good dental hygiene and remarkably advanced dentistry practices.
DrUtrecht (talk) 22:14, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

This doesn’t strike me as something that belongs in the main article or is even notable or generalizable.—-Ermenrich (talk) 00:23, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

The vikings in-fact didn’t have horns on their helmets that was made up centuries later by illustrators 2A02:C7C:6A51:4300:8928:439C:7CB0:A016 (talk) 15:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

We can credit that to an opera producer, actually. The ancient Britons, on the other hand, did wear horns on their heads. Not helmets though, but more often the entire skull of an animal, skin and all. Not for battle either but as costumes for a religious, druidic festival that we still celebrate today... just 30 days from now in fact. Zaereth (talk) 21:40, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

References

Legacy II

Hi, a bouquet from my latest Florilegium. Can/should it be included, or not? Opinions welcome. T

(https://www.worldhistory.org/Vikings/)

The Vikings influenced the culture of every nation they came in contact with and in every conceivable way from architecture to language, infrastructure to poetry and place names, military reforms to food and clothing, and certainly in the areas of warfare and shipbuilding.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-46194699

The Viking system of law contains elements which mirror the ethical codes of many cultures, along with a framework of ownership.

Mr Cooper* explained: "They are still some of the laws we use to this day; don't kill, don't steal. A lot of it related to property and respecting property."

Mr Cooper said: "The Viking system was almost like our current system still works. There was a local Thing, which was a local council. Then there was like, for example, a Shetland-wide Thing. Local Things would send representatives to that. Ultimately there was the King and court in Norway."

In ways, this structure filtered through into egalitarian aspects of Viking society. Mr Cooper said: "Women had rights in Viking times that they lost and didn't regain for 10 centuries. They could own land, they could inherit land, and they could speak at the Things. "They were a fair-minded race. Despite their reputation. they had rules to live by.

(/*Davy Cooper of the Shetland Amenity Trust, my addition/)

https://historymedieval.com/legacy-of-the-viking-age-shaping-europe/

Scholars have proposed different end dates for the Viking Age, with most agreeing that it ended in the 11th century. The conversion of Iceland to Christianity in 1000, the death of Harthacnut, the Danish King of England in 1042, and the Battle of Largs in 1263 are some of the events used to mark the end of the Viking Age. However, a "long Viking Age" may have extended into the 15th century, as the Western Isles, the Isle of Man, Orkney, and Shetland remained under Scandinavian authority until the 13th and 15th centuries.

Despite several attempts by Scandinavian kings to regain control of England, the last of which took place in 1086, Viking presence declined in England. The last major Viking raid was led by Eystein II of Norway in 1152.

Between 790 and 800, the first Viking raids began along the coasts of western France, primarily during the summer. The Vikings took advantage of the disputes in the royal family after the death of Louis the Pious to establish their first colony in Gascony. The raids in 841 caused significant damage to Rouen and Jumièges, with the Vikings targeting the treasures stored at monasteries. In 845, an expedition reached Paris, and the presence of Carolingian deniers in Mullaghboden, County Limerick in 1871 suggests they were likely booty from the raids.

Economic Impact

The Vikings also played a role in the development of a monetary system, as their trading activities required the use of coins and other forms of currency. The Vikings introduced the use of silver coins, which facilitated the exchange of goods and services, making trade more efficient. This led to the widespread adoption of coins as a means of payment, which was crucial for the growth of Europe’s economy.

Another impact of the Vikings on Europe’s economy was the expansion of trade centers. The Vikings established trade centers in cities like Dublin, York, and Paris, which became thriving centers of trade and commerce. These trade centers attracted merchants and traders from all over Europe, who brought with them a wealth of goods and ideas. The establishment of these trade centers allowed for the exchange of goods and services on a large scale, and this greatly contributed to the growth of the European economy.

84.208.65.62 (talk) 18:16, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Name Change

Shouldnt the namr of this wiki page be Changed to Norse society or Norse culture instead of just vikings? Seems more historically accurate. H20346 (talk) 06:05, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

"Vikings" is by far the most recognizable name in English, so it's what we use per WP:COMMONNAME. Other articles like Norse mythology and Norse art use "Norse" as appropriate. Remsense诉 06:24, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Germanic culture

The viking culture is non existend, its the germanic culture within the northern tribes. Viking was merely an occupation within the northern germanic culture, this should better be shown for accurate information. It should atleast be mentioned that the vikings were from the germanic tribes 84.104.178.192 (talk) 07:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Before even the opening paragraph of the lead, there's a hatnote that makes it clear that the Vikings were North Germanic Norsemen. Remsense诉 07:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 September 2024

"The masculine is more easily derived from the feminine than the other way around" -> delete this sentence.

Rationale: The source does not support this sentence. "This would be the original sense of the feminine víking, and from it, the masculine would be derived" -> the source only presented 1 scenerio where the masculine form is derived from the feminine form. Overgeneralizing it is an original synthesis. I've read the source carefully and did not find that the source supports this claim anywhere. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:EDA0:1EFB:E4CB:1F6A (talk) 04:31, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I have been looking into this since the IP editor posted a query at the reference desk (RD). The whole "Original meaning and derivation of the word Viking" section could be improved, but I don't see a problem with "The masculine is more easily derived from the feminine than the other way around". The original version of the queried text was added here at 15:45, 26 March 2015. The source is

Eldar Heide (2005). "Víking – 'rower shifting'? An etymological contribution" (PDF). Arkiv för Nordisk Filologi. 120: 41–54. Archived from the original (PDF) on 14 July 2014. Retrieved 20 April 2015.

My explanation at the RD was that Heide and his sources are arguing that there are examples of masculine words like víkingr being derived from feminine words like viking (according to researchers in Old Norse), but not the other way round. Three key quotes are on page 43 Askeberg says: "I do not know any example of a masculine ing-derivation having given origin to a feminine nomen actionis that expresses the person’s action, and such a formation seems unreasonable. A hildingr m. 'king' can not be supposed to have given origin to a *hilding f. 'the quality of being a king' etc" on page 44 Askeberg points out that deverbative ing-derivations are considered younger than the word víkingr, and that it is unlikely that feminine verbal abstracts in so early times could be formed from strong verbs, like víka. and 45 On the other hand, a masculine víkingr 'sea warrior' could well be derived from a feminine víking denoting an activity. Old Norse parallels to such a development would be vellingr m. 'pottage' from *velling f. 'boiling'; geldingr m. 'a castrated ox or ram' from gelding f. 'castration'; [etc.]. TSventon (talk) 17:18, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

TSventon Again, they present 1 example of a masculine word being derived from a feminine word. Where does it say that the masuline is more easily derived from the feminine in general? 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:E1D5:4325:36B7:C2A5 (talk) 05:06, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

"Askeberg points out that deverbative ing-derivations are considered younger than the word víkingr, and that it is unlikely that feminine verbal abstracts in so early times could be formed from strong verbs, like víka" -> this sentence does not prove your point. They're talking about the derivation from the word "víka". This sentence actually contradicts your claim. It says the word "víkingr" (masuline) came first.

The first sentence ("Askeberg says:...") does not prove your point either. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:E1D5:4325:36B7:C2A5 (talk) 05:23, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. TylerBurden (talk) 19:02, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Consensus cannot be made if there is no one to debate it with. How am I supposed to reach consensus? 63.73.199.69 (talk) 02:42, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey, you pinged me but I don't have the requisite knowledge here to feel comfortable deciding. I'll post on WP:WikiProject Linguistics to ask. Remsense ‥ 论 02:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The first thing I'll say is that the entire etymology section is extremely bloated and needs to be whittled down... a lot. I mean three paragraphs should be plenty, seven at the outside. No need to have it so big it needs to be divided into subsections, that's just nuts. Unless this article were about the word itself, etymology is not extremely relevant to the subject of this article, which is about the people. Encyclopedias are about things, not words (unless the word is the subject of the article). Don't get me wrong, it's interesting to know where words come from and etymology is a huge interest of mine, so it does merit some explanation, but this section has gotten way out of hand. The etymology section reads more like a textbook rather than a brief summary.

For example, when talking in terms of feminine or masculine, the average reader is likely to confuse that with terms that are used to describe men versus women (for example, prince versus princess), but that's not what we're talking about. It's more like describing Latin words where masculine words denote that which is doing (words ending in -us), neutral words which denote that which is having done to it (words ending in -um), and the feminine, which is the act of doing itself (words ending in -a). This is because languages like Latin, Norse, and German are very synthetic languages and not very order-specific. For example, if I say in Latin "dog bites man" it could mean either one did the biting; the order of the words doesn't mean much. You have to add the proper suffixes to let the reader know it was the man doing the biting (Dog-um bites man-us). English is a very analytic language, so words are not masculine or feminine in this sense. English is very order-specific, so if we want to convey that the man did the biting, man must come first in the sentence (man bites dog). The entire concept of feminine or masculine words is very foreign to English and not at all intuitive to English readers.

Getting this textbook-deep into the matter is just confusing and unfair to the general reader unless we explain these deeper linguistic differences. It's just too deep for a brief, easily-understandable summary. This all really stems from back in the days where Dan kept coming here hyper-focused on the word as if it was the same as the thing, which it's not.

Etymology is far from an exact science. Linguists come up with their theories, which often conflict with each other, and they tend to disagree very adamantly. (Not that different from taxonomists.) When we get this deep we need to start explaining that so-and-so said this while what's-his-face said that, and this other person says this other thing, etc. I think it's best if we just altogether omit these fine details and paint this picture in far broader strokes. It'll be far easier to read and comprehend that way. If anyone feels the need to get into all these finer points then it would be best to create Viking (word) and incorporate it all there. Zaereth (talk) 05:03, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure you've really addressed the IP's proximate concern. If the sentence in question is undue minutiae (I would probably agree), shouldn't it be removed anyway? Remsense ‥ 论 05:05, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

User:Remsense It's not just undue minutiae. The source doesn't support the claim anywhere. 1 example does not mean one can overgeneralize it. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:8842:9163:CF6F:B64F (talk) 18:54, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I think, along with a ton of other details. Zaereth (talk) 05:12, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and cut the entire section down to size, does it seem alright? Remsense ‥ 论 05:39, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm happy with the change. I know you're asking Zaereth, but I just want say that I'm satisfied. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:8842:9163:CF6F:B64F (talk) 18:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm equally glad you are! Glad I could help. Remsense ‥ 论 19:36, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, but it was approaching midnight where I am so I needed to go to bed. Yes, that's exactly along the lines of what I was thinking. If someone wants to get really deep into it, they can always create an article about the word where there's room to expand on things like "masculine" and "feminine" in a way that it will be fully coherent. All we really need here is a brief summary of that article, which it looks like you did a great job of. Thanks. Zaereth (talk) 20:01, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I concur that Viking (word) is a viable article. I always like when we can have proper articles about terms—remind me to link this discussion the next time I get highly opinionated about an undue terminological tangent in some article. I always worry, but I guess given my major contributions it's unlikely people would accuse me of having some zealous hatred for lexicography. Remsense ‥ 论 20:07, 2 October 2024 (UTC)