Talk:Võ Chí Công

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:36, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Vo Chi Cong → Võ Chí Công – Relisted Alpha Quadrant ^talk 18:42, 23 September 2011 (UTC) Correct name should have diacritics; non-diacritical name should be redirect. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 13:25, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Subject is a Vietnamese exclusively notable for actions in Vietnam. No reason not to use the correct spelling. —  AjaxSmack  20:55, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
• Support ditto. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:16, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose On Google Books, there are 512 post-1990 English-language results, only 1 with these diacritics. The one exception is misclassified and not actually in English. The most official source, his Vietnam News Agency obituary, does not use diacritics. There are more examples from Associated Press, Vietnam+, Los Angeles Times, and The Scotsman. The title of the article should tell the reader what the subject's common name is, not mislead him on the issue of whether Vietnamese diacritics are in fact mainstream usage. Vietnamese names all have diacritics in Vietnamese, but such diacritics are not normally included in the English-language form of the name, not even by sources like Britannica or National Geographic, both of which use diacritics for European languages. It seems that someone has manipulated the sourcing for this article to make it appear that English-language sources are using the diacritics when in fact none of them do. The subject appeared in numerous news accounts during the war as a Vietcong spokesperson. There has been some controversy concerning the use of diacritics on Wiki in recent months, but the practice of doing Vietnam War-related titles without diacritics reflects longstanding consensus. See Ho Chi Minh, Ngo Dinh Diem, or Category:People_of_the_Vietnam_War Kauffner (talk) 08:27, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I must add that the attitude of the nom, which implies that VNA, VOV News, Thanh Nien, Nhan Dan Newspaper, Tuoi Tre News and the rest of the English-language Vietnamese media don't know how to spell Vietnamese names correctly, is most patronizing. During the war, the South Vietnamese government promoted the use of diacritics in English, so their use has always been limited in the communist media. Kauffner (talk) 13:03, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Many of the sources you mention limit use of diacritics due to technical limitations, style manuals, or laziness. Wikipedia does not suffer these limitations. See also User:Prolog/Diacritical marks for additional affirmative reasons why they should be used. —  AjaxSmack  23:10, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per Kauffner. Reliable English-language sources from Vietnam do not use diacritics, so neither should we. It is purely speculation that diacritics have not been included due to technical limitations. Jenks24 (talk) 08:35, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I used to buy the "technical limitations" argument myself. But several of these news sites were set up fairly recently and only one of them uses diacritics -- which of course shows that they can do it. Kauffner (talk) 11:01, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. The name appears to be most commonly spelled without the diacritics, and why this may be so is not of primary importance. Andrewa (talk) 13:12, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. It is impossible to type diacriticals for most English speakers, leave the specifics for the intro. Ogress _smash! 05:42, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Reconsidered; diacritics in the title would make it very incongruous when all other Vietnam-related articles don't have them. Michaelmas1957 (talk) 13:31, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose per recent discussion in Jimbo Wales talk archive, where Jimbo comes out against this excessive use of diacritics for non-English titles. 70.24.247.40 (talk) 00:48, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Who is Jimbo Wales? 98.204.234.150 (talk) 14:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian (talk) 16:40, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

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Vo Chi Cong → Võ Chí Công – per recent RMs and RfC at WP:VIETCON. Also per Lockhart & Duiker The A to Z of Vietnam 2010 p.420 "Võ Chí Công (1912— ). Leading figure in the Vietnamese Communist Party (VCP) and former chief of state of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam (SRV)...", and "State funeral for former President of State Council - Võ Chí Công". BaoMoi.com, September 2011. --Relisted. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:48, 21 April 2014 (UTC) --In ictu oculi (talk) 04:10, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Support per wp:vietcon ^walk victor falk ^talk 06:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Wikipedia does not typically strip diacritics from Latin-alphabet names. —  AjaxSmack  00:01, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Relisting comment: It would be helpful if editors more clearly addressed the issue raised in the previous move discussion, and explained what has changed since then.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:48, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

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Well what has changed is consensus. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:24, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

There were several "issues" brought up in the previous discussion. I will address a few.

1. "It is impossible to type diacriticals for most English speakers". This is irrelevant with redirects. We have Jiří Čeřovský, Jānis K. Bērziņš, Đurđa Adlešič, and thousands of other articles in other Latin-alphabet languages with no problem.
2. "The name appears to be most commonly spelled without the diacritics". This is also true for numerous other similar cases such as İsmet İnönü, Şükrü Saracoğlu, and Zoran Đinđić. Unlike other media such as periodicals or news organisations, Wikipedia does not have the technical or style manual limitations that require stripping diacritics.
3. "Diacritics in the title would make it very incongruous when all other Vietnam-related articles don't have them". Not true. See Category:Communist Party of Vietnam politicians where almost all of the entries have diacritics.
4. "Per recent discussion in Jimbo Wales talk archive, where Jimbo comes out against this excessive use of diacritics". I'm not sure what excessive is but Võ Chí Công has a total of three diacritics, The examples I gave in #1 and #2 have three or more diacritics each, five in one case. —  AjaxSmack  01:56, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, we may love him, but Wikipedia doesn't do whatever Jimbo says (or once said) any longer just because he said so (unless he pulls his special founder rank in a very formal way, which I've not seen him do in an age).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  11:11, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• Strong support: Yes, consensus has totally reversed itself on this in the intervening years, because the objections have proven to be faulty.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:56, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. We should follow standard publishing style so readers can focus on content instead of being being distracted by style hotdogging. The common name for this person has already been documented in the earlier RM. As for the argument that the sources don't spell this name as some might like it to be spelled only because of "technical limitations", that's such a lot of handwaving. Where are you going? (talk) 16:19, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• Wikipedia does not follow "standard publishing style"; it has own set of WP:POLICIES and WP:GUIDELINES (such as, for instance, wp:tsc and wp:vietcon, respectively), to meet the specific typographical challenges of an on-line encyclopaedia. ^walk victor falk ^talk 18:25, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
• User:Where are you going?: Please cite the standard to which you refer, and the consensus discussion at which Wikipedia adopted it as our standard. Võ Chí Công and Vo Chi Cong are the same common name, just styled with more utility in the first case than the latter. Your unfamiliarity with Vietnamese is not shared by everyone. I don't think you're using the word "hotdogging" correctly. You are definitely not using handwave correctly; it applies to your own argument here.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  18:52, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.