Talk:Walter Johnson (disambiguation)

Page move

Was there any discussion about moving the Walter Johnson (disambiguation) and Walter Johnson (baseball) articles? I don't see any, and I fail to understand reason for the moves. The baseball player is easily the most famous of those listed here, and should remain as the primary topic, IMO. - Eureka Lott 12:32, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

No, there doesn't seem to have been any discussion. It looks like some Wiki admin in the UK just took it upon herself to do it. I've never heard of any of the other Walter Johnsons on the disambiguation page. I would have voted against the move if given the chance. Oh well.

DutchmanInDisguise (talk) 15:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Just another thought -- there are dozens, if not hundreds, of pages which link to "Walter Johnson". Now somebody will have to change all of them to "Walter Johnson (baseball)" so they'll link to the right guy. Is BrownHairedGirl gonna take care of that, or has she left the task to us Yank baseball fans? I say revert the change now!

DutchmanInDisguise (talk) 15:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I am in the process of disambiguating the actual links. Most of the hundreds of incoming links are generated by the presence of Johnson on heavily-used templates, and those will move across automatically in a few days as the templates are purged on the servers (I changed the templates first). As with any page move, it is the responsibility of the editor moving a page to ensure that links point to where they are supposed to go, so i will finish the job. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:38, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, but why did you move the pages? - Eureka Lott 15:47, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Because it seemed to me that the baseball player was not an order of magnitude more significant than all the other Walter Johnsons combined. Yes, the baseball player has squillions of incoming links, partly because editors have done an incredibly good job of copiously documenting every aspect of baseball and partly because he is included in several very widely-used templates ... but that degree of wikipedia coverage is not a factor in notability (it's self-referential) and doesn't make him a more significant person. The other Walter Johnsons include a Governor of Colorado, a British member of Parliament (UK)|]] and two academics; depending on the reader's interests, any one of those could be the primary topic, so the NPOV solution is to choose none of them by disambiguating them all. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

If we were talking about a typical baseball player, I'd certainly agree with you. However, we're discussing one of the most important players in the history of the game; one of the first five inductees to the Baseball Hall of Fame. He is, by far, the most notable person of this name. Most of the other articles on the dab page haven't even progressed past stub status. I'd appreciate it if you would stop changing the links until we reach consensus. - Eureka Lott 17:12, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll stop disambiguating the links if that's what you want; I was just trying to do the proper tidyup after a move, an issue which another editor raised as a problem.

The fact that the other articles are relatively underdeveloped is an indication of the systemic bias in wikipedia. That's not a criticism of any editors, just a reflection of who edits here, but the status of a wikipedia article is not an indication of notability or the lack thereof. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:37, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to downplay the significance of the other Walter Johnsons. I was merely pointing out that there's a good reason why the one article is so much better-developed than the others.

How would you like to proceed from here? Do we need a WP:RM discussion? - Eureka Lott 17:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

The reason is largely a matter of systemic bias.

Anyway, launch an RM if you like. I don't understand the enthusiasm some editors display for selecting one of a number of ambiguous articles as a primary topic, but since we disagree, an RM is the way to resolve the issue. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:47, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I still disagree with the page move. Walter Johnson wasn't just any baseball player. He is considered by most students of the game to be the greatest pitcher in the history of the sport. He was one of the first group of players inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1936. I agree that a lot of the links are bogus and shouldn't be used to gauge notability, but to us Yanks, he is several times as "significant" as a mere governor. What was done was comparable to the ludicrousness of creating a "David Beckham" disambiguation page if, let's say, there were also a "David Beckham (university president)", "David Beckham (bank robber)", and a few other gents who happen to have the same name as "David Beckham (footballer)"!

I say, revert it!

DutchmanInDisguise (talk) 17:28, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Revert as well - It's pretty obvious that well BrownHairedGirl meant well intentions by moving the article, she should have at least put it up for the discussion. I'm not sure how big of a baseball fan you are, but Walter Johnson is in the Hall of Fame, he's a pretty prominent baseball player.--Levineps (talk) 17:43, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Revert - Not just any old Hall of Famer, either, but one of the 5 charter members. Looking at the disambiguation page, I don't see more than one or two who even approach the Big Train's level of notability. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:05, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Revert per above. Was shocked that it was moved when I first saw it. A charter hall of fame member is pretty major. If he was your typical baseball player, then a dab would be fine, but he wasn't. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 19:42, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Revert per above. Seems as though he pretty clearly meets the guidelines discussed at WP:PT. - Masonpatriot (talk) 20:33, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Moved (previous move undone), with no bad faith seen in original move. DMacks (talk) 18:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Walter Johnson → Walter Johnson (disambiguation) — This is a proposal to revert a pair of recent page moves that were performed without prior discussion and to restore the baseball player as the primary topic for the name. As one of the most important figures in the history of baseball and one of the first five people to be inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame, he is easily the most notable person of this name. Eureka Lott 03:34, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

• Walter Johnson (baseball) → Walter Johnson

Please also note the above discussion. - Eureka Lott 03:48, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support. In Nov and Dec, the baseball player's article was viewed about 10-12 times as often as all 6 other Walter Johnsons combined. Station1 (talk) 08:04, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support. Agreed for the reason above, plus for the way the first change was made without prior discussion. -- Couillaud (talk) 21:42, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose, unless someone can prove that the baseball player (who died 63 years ago) is the dominant meaning. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:35, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, so eight (8) days have passed now and everybody who has checked in on this discussion, except AnthonyAppleyard says to REVERT. How do we get this discussion closed and get somebody to put things back the way they were? From what I can see at Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions, we participants aren't allowed to close and revert.

DutchmanInDisguise (talk) 04:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. While the baseball player may be a popular page compared to the others, I'm not convinced that it is the primary use at this time. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:17, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
  • How many of the other Walter Johnsons are in any organization's Hall of Fame? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:10, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
• Strong support, no question that this is the primary use. When you type in walter johnson into google, what is most of the first 100 results? The baseball player, because that's the dominant meaning. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 16:54, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
• Strong support, in case you didn't see my comments above. Now what do we have to do to put things back the way they were before the unwanted and unnecessary page moves were made? DutchmanInDisguise (talk) 19:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.