Talk:Want! (Berryz Kobo song)

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: rename both as nominated. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:51, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

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• Want! → Want (Berryz Kobo song)
• Want (song) → Want (Natalie Imbruglia song)

– Presence of absence of the ! on the Japanese song is not consistent or sufficient to disambiguate. Want (Berryz Kobo song) can redirect or vice versa In ictu oculi (talk) 14:11, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

proposal was originally to [Want! (Berryz Kobo song)], intervening ! removed at editor Cuchullain's request below In ictu oculi (talk) 16:53, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support per nom. "Want!" and "Want (song)" should redirect to the disambiguation page. -- 70.50.148.122 (talk) 03:32, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

  Why would "Want!" be redirected to the disambugation page? It's unlikely that anyone would type the word with an exclamation mark unpurposely. --Moscow Connection (talk) 05:45, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

  I agree. No one would put in a ! by accident. Unreal7 (talk) 20:23, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. The Berryz Kobo song should either stay at Want! as natural disambiguation, or be moved to Want (Berryz Kobo song), to remove the exclamation point per WP:TITLETM. In the latter case Want! should remain a redirect to the Berryz Kobo song, not the dab page. A case could be made for either option, but the article should definitely should not be at Want! (Berryz Kobo song). Moving the Natalie Imbruglia song should be fine.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:33, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't really care either way as long as it is moved to meet the more important first paragraph and nutshell demands of WP:TITLE: So Want (Berryz Kobo song) will also help both sets of Users - Japanese music and Natalia Imbruglia listeners. But WP:TITLETM has nothing to say on the !, it's entirely a matter of editor choice and sources. Either way both will redirect. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:53, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you really need to start "caring either way" considering how many of these requests you open and how much of other editors' time they take up. And you definitely need to be familiar with the relevant policies. WP:TITLETM and the associated guideline MOS:TM are the places that recommend against non-standard formatting, such as extraneous exclamation marks, in article titles. I think I've already covered this at a different RM, but the only question is whether the "!" is acceptable in the title or not. If it is, then Want! is a fine naturally disambiguated title and the article should stay. If it's not, then it shouldn't be in a disambiguated title either, meaning Want (Berryz Kobo) is the fallback. The proposed Want! (Berryz Kobo song) is not an acceptable title.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:32, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Well the reason I don't care either way is because (a) WP:TITLETM has nothing to say on the !, since it is a matter of editor choice and sources, and (b) this is a trivial MOS issue compared to WP:CRITERIA. Which is why I've done exactly what you've asked and changed the proposal to Want (Berryz Kobo song) as you requested. I actually agree with you personally, I was merely deferring to other editors in previous RMs. Either way it's an improvement.

As for taking up time, I agree it would be better to amend guidelines somewhere to make it clear that ! is not sufficient for WP:CRITERIA/WP:DAB. But there are in fact a limited number of articles, disproportionately of Japanese songs and albums where ! performs a visual function ウォント!. And it's no great trouble to do them one by one since different editors have contributed to different articles. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:53, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support per Cúchullain, move to Want (Berryz Kobo song) and Want (Natalie Imbruglia song) respectively. Disambiguation by exclamation mark is not wise in the best of circumstances and when the sources don't agree much better to omit. --Richhoncho (talk) 08:20, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 23:59, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

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Want (Berryz Kobo song) → Want! (Berryz Kobo song) – The exclamation mark is part of the title and should remain in the title. There is no evidence the "!" has ever been dropped by any reliable source. Since the Japanese media never do things like that, it surely wasn't. Moscow Connection (talk) 02:58, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support - A single exclamation is not an excessive stylization issue, which is what the previous discussion was concerned about (like if a title had 2 or more exclamation points). See Hello (disambiguation)#Songs -AngusWOOF (talk) 03:49, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
• Support - I already supported retaining "!" in the above RM since it seems probable that while to 99% of those stumbling across the article dabbing by "!" does not tell the reader what the article is, nevertheless for those familiar with a particular song/album/group the "!" does add to our "recognizable" WP:CRITERIA. The attempt to homogenize exactly the punctuation to agree with Want (Natalie Imbruglia song) does not seem to have any guideline backing. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:01, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as proposed. If we're adding the "!" back, the article can be moved back to Want!, since it already redirects here, and it's a unique title that doesn't refer to anything else named "Want". In other words, if "!" is acceptable in the title, the parenthetical isn't necessary per WP:CONCISE, WP:PRECISE, and WP:NCDAB. --Cúchullain ^t/c 14:50, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

As noted before when WP:PRECISE (No.3 of the 5 WP:CRITERIA) has been cited the example is "On the other hand, Horowitz would not be precise enough to identify unambiguously the famous classical pianist Vladimir Horowitz.", in this case ! is not enough to identify unambiguously a song, nor identify that the song is by Berryz Kobo. So WP:PRECISE like the other 3 WP:CRITERIA supports a recognizable title. Not least for iPhone users. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:35, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

The guidelines you listed don't apply cause "Want" is not precise and not concise. ("WANT!" is precise. And if you delete the exclamation mark it doesn't make the title more concise, but it certainly makes it imprecise.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 10:13, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

In ictu, that's a very sophistic reading of the policy, which is really pretty clear. "Want!" is sufficiently precise to distinguish the article title from others, since no others are written that way. It's also obviously more concise and natural. It even redirects to this article already, there's nothing else it would refer to. In the very least it's acceptable natural disambiguation which is preferable to a parenthetical.

I I said in the last RM, if there's some other reason to avoid the exclamation mark as a special character (a case can certainly be made for that), it needs to be avoided in the disambiguated title as well. Titling the article Want! (Berryz Kobo song) when Want! already redirects there is just silly.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:25, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Well I suppose you are entitled to consider the views of other editors "sophistic" and silly", but please remember that we have already established a consensus in the previous RM that an exclamation point "!" is not sufficient per WP:AT in an English language encyclopedia to identify "Want" + "!" as identifying this particular Japanese song by Berryz工房. The consensus in the previous RM is in part affected by the paucity of English-language sources and the generic issue of "!" often being omitted in print references to song titles. That was the conclusion of the previous RM, and we're now discussing your objection; which I listened to then and changed from [[Want! (Berryz Kobo song)], removing ! at your request. But I now regret doing that because it seems apparent that WP Japan editors don't object to artist names, but do object to paring off punctuation. Please understand we are trying to balance two things here - the lack of recognition for English-only readers, and the recognition factor of "!", which although possibly decorative in Japanese (and Korean and Chinese titles) is still recognizable in Japanese titles.

Beyond that, just trying to find this song on an Android [want berryz.. ] produces it quickly, as does [[want berryz ] in the dropdown rh search box, and of course Google as well. So it seems having the band name is working for all users. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:24, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

The only real question is whether "!" is acceptable in the title or not. If it's acceptable, then Want! is fine as a title. Adding "(Berryz Kobo song)" doesn't help readers looking for "Want!" any more than the song's actual title does. It just adds more characters to type and potentially mistype. It doesn't even help those looking for a different article called "Want", unless some significant portion of readers are typing in "Want!" looking for some other article that doesn't use an exclamation mark. Personally, I don't think our readers are that thick.

The only reason the parenthetical would be needed is if "!" is unacceptable for some other reason. In the last RM, it was decided it was unacceptable, but there are other recent RMs where it has been considered acceptable. At least, this has been the consensus in most areas of Wikipedia outside the walled garden of song title RMs.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:36, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• Comment only. Music, as is language, is an aural tradition. There is no benefit to anybody having disambiguation by punctuation or capitalization. If this RM is successful there will be a redirect. Wanting the song at Want! is pedantic and of no use to readers or editors who may be looking for other songs (or even this song but unaware of the precise punctuation).
  

Whether the exclamation mark should be in this title is a separate issue I do not wish to take sides on.--Richhoncho (talk) 11:00, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support. The exclamation appears to be an integral part of the title, so there is no reason not to include it here. --DAJF (talk) 08:16, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.