Talk:Loafers Lodge fire

Requested move 16 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Move to Loafers Lodge fire (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 08:02, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

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Wellington hostel fire → 2023 Wellington hostel fire – Previous name too generic. Multiple hotels and hostels have burnt down in Wellington, a city of nearly half a million people. It doesn't make sense for this title to be so simplistic. Aubernas (talk) 20:19, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NEM18981215.2.9 This is just one example. Aubernas (talk) 20:19, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

That didn't happen at a hostel. Have there been any other notable hostel fires in Wellington? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 16:01, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• Alternative name - Loafers Lodge fire. It is early days but this is how it is being refered to in NZ media. See example https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018890396/community-in-shock-after-fatal-loafers-lodge-fire. ShakyIsles (talk) 20:41, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

  That sounds good. Anything as long as it's not "Wellington hostel fire", or worse still, "Wellington fire" or "New Zealand hostel fire". Going with what the media has reported it would make the page easier to find on google. Aubernas (talk) 21:29, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support 2023 Wellington hostel fire per WP:NCE. Oppose Loafers Lodge fire as vague to anyone outside new Zealand, too unclear to satisfy the "where" requirement. "Wellington hostel fire" appears far more in Ghits compared to "Loafers Lodge fire", certainly not the common name around the world. WWGB (talk) 02:41, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
• Loafers Lodge fire is how I have seen it reported. I am concerned that this event isn’t going to be notable per WP:NEVENT though… — HTGS (talk) 05:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

  As of the police announcement that they suspect arson I feel like that's changed. If it's true, it will be the first arson attack in Wellington since 27 March 1984 (Trades Hall bombing). Perhaps we should consider making a page for the Tauranga rainbow building arson attack https://www.stuff.co.nz/bay-of-plenty/300751806/two-men-sentenced-for-arson-attack-on-rainbow-building Aubernas (talk) 09:50, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

  It stands to be the deadliest fire in NZ since the Ballyntines fire and seems likely to lead to regulation change so I feel like it'll be covered on the notability front. Turnagra (talk) 21:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, regulation change would probably cement it, a la Hartley Colliery disaster—although that one also had a substantially higher death toll. Events like this are just such a hassle in how they’re hard to evaluate without a historical perspective... and of course if the event ends up notable, it would be a shame to not have covered it from the start. (I have similar concerns about the Auckland children bodies found in suitcases article in case anyone here has a fondness for covering tragic shit.) — HTGS (talk) 04:53, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

• I'd support a move to Loafers Lodge Fire, Wellington. Side comment on notability - a multiple loss of life through, at this stage a potential, arson is an incredibly rare event in NZ so would most likely cross the notability threshold NealeWellington (talk) 08:44, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

  Oppose move to "Loafers Lodge Fire, Wellington". With all due respect, I have never seen a Wikipedia article titled like that. 2023 Wellington hostel fire or Loafers Lodge fire are good. Putting a comma followed by the word "Wellington" is uncommon in New Zealand English as far as I know. Aubernas (talk) 09:44, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

  Furthermore, if it is found to be arson, or worse, terrorism, we should change it to reflect that, as per Kyoto Animation arson attack for example.--Aubernas (talk) 09:47, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Support Loafers Lodge fire - it's how it's being reported and is consistent with other events such as the Ballantyne's fire or Grenfell Tower fire. I don't think concerns about the descriptiveness of this hold water, as that's what the lede and short description are for. I also don't think there's a need to further disambiguate Loafers Lodge fire with the name of where it happened in the title. Turnagra (talk) 21:13, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Wanted to mention Ballantynes's before but couldn't remember what it was called. I support a move to Loafers' Lodge fire Aubernas (talk) 22:11, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Support move to Loafers Lodge fire - no apostrophe per signage visible on Google Street View. This matches how similar disasters are named e.g. Grenfell Tower fire. Daveosaurus (talk) 09:50, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

• Move to Wellington hostel arson attack because it's more descriptive. The vast majority of people outside NZ haven't heard of Loafers Lodge. The police are treating the fire as an arson attack & a suspect has been charged with arson. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:36, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Just as we do not title an article "murder of" until someone is convicted, we cannot include arson unless someone is convicted. WWGB (talk) 13:45, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Support “Loafers Lodge fire” or “2023 Loafers Lodge fire” as it is referred to by that name in the local media. The police are treating it as a case of Arson, so it should be in the category “Arson in New Zealand” even if no-one has been convicted. And also in the category “2023 disasters in New Zealand” as the category “Fires in New Zealand” is a subcategory of “Disasters in New Zealand”. Hugo999 (talk) 04:13, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Okay, let's move the page to Loafers Lodge fire. It's both how it's referred to in the media and follows the precedent of such events like the Ballantyne's fire and the Grenfell Tower fire. All agreed? Aubernas (talk) 00:24, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove aftermath section?

Now that reporting of the victims identities and ages has been moved to a separate section, is it appropriate to now remove the aftermath section in it's entirety? Whilst it's factually correct and was appropriate at the time, I don't feel it's continuing inclusion contributes anything of on-going value to the article. 222.155.184.142 (talk) 22:49, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done. WWGB (talk) 04:39, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, but just moving the contents of that section to the Victims section doesn't make a lot of sense to me - and the tense of it appears to be wrong now that remains of the victims have been removed.

If anything, saying "a Karakea was performed prior to beginning removal of the remains of the deceased" would be more accurate (if it was indeed performed -- I've not read anything conclusive one way or the other -- so obviously that would need to be confirmed first).

Personally, I just don't see the relevance of that part at all anymore (any more than saying "people prayed for the victims" would be relevant), but that may just be me. 125.238.225.184 (talk) 00:43, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Done 222.155.184.142 (talk) 19:52, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Is 20 missing still relevant?

Should information about 20 missing people be removed? The implication initially was that they'd probably eventually be found deceased, but it's now clear that that's not the case and they appear to have just moved elsewhere (if the number was ever accurate to begin with). 222.155.184.142 (talk) 20:01, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Done. 125.238.225.184 (talk) 04:18, 1 June 2023 (UTC)