Talk:Seitan

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 20:11, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Wheat gluten (food) → Seitan – As a food product, I believe that "seitan" is more commonly used than "wheat gluten". It is difficult to compare on Google Books and Google News because "wheat gluten" is quite often used to refer to gluten (as in the protein, not the food). Plus, naming this article "seitan" will help avoid any confusion between gluten (the food) and gluten (the protein). Michipedian (talk) 23:03, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Note. The 2005 move the other direction was explained as "Seitan is specific to macrobiotic cooking but 'wheat gluten' can encompass all foodstuffs made from wheat gluten; there is consensus on 'discussion' for move." Dekimasuよ! 03:31, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Mild oppose. The suggestion is no disaster, but more accessible would be "Wheat gluten (seitan)". I'm not sure it's worth the move to a sole term that might be less accessible to common readers-in-search.

Here's evidence of usage:

British

US

Combined, for all of English.

Tony (talk) 04:07, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Do you have any citation of "seitan" being a term used primarily in reference to a macrobiotic diet? Although the term may have originated in reference to macrobiotic cooking, plenty of sources now use the term that are in no way associated with macrobiotic cooking, most notably vegetarian and vegan resources, e.g. < http://vegetarian.about.com/od/glossary/g/Seitan.htm >. Michipedian (talk) 15:51, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per the historic usage chart. The current title has a long history and current usage remains consistently high. Seitan historically has had low usage and a peak about a decade ago. So this fails at establishing a change in the common name. Maybe reconsider in the future if there is a clear and strong shift to a different name. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:37, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Could you post a link to the historic usage chart? I'm uncertain about comparing "wheat gluten" to "seitan" because "wheat gluten" can also refer to the the protein gluten. Because "wheat gluten" can refer to both the food and the protein, historic usage charts may have artificially inflated usage rates for the term. Michipedian (talk) 23:46, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

No need, it is already posted above. Vegaswikian1 (talk) 07:19, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah sorry, didn't realize that was what you were referring to. Do you see how the "wheat gluten" usage rate could be artificially inflated because of it sharing the name with gluten the protein? Michipedian (talk) 16:06, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. This name (which I've never heard before) seems associated with the Erewhon Organic Cereal company. That article could also do with some attention, that article name does not match the article lead or content for a start. But for the issue at hand of this RM, far better to stick to the generic name rather than what is at best a genericized trademark. (A link to the former move discussion would also be good.) Andrewa (talk) 20:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Remove redirect for Vital Wheat Gluten

Is it possible to have the entry for Vital Wheat Gluten removed and converted to a search? At present Vital Wheat gluten redirects to this page, for a specific food product, which can be confusing for novice bakers trying to find information on the flour additive. All of the products I can find on Google branded as Vital Wheat Gluten refer to the additive, not Wheat Gluten the food. (For example, A google search for Vital wheat gluten, the first page of results displays Bob's Red Mill Vital Wheat Gluten, King Arthur Flour Vital Wheat Gluten, Amazon.com product Vital Wheat Gluten, A Description of Vital Wheat Gluten, ArrowHead Mills Vital Wheat Gluten, and Honeyville Vital Wheat Gluten.)

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.152.208.1 (talk) 04:25, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

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Reference regarding Harmony Chinese Vegetarian Restaurant contains a url that leads to a 404 error page

Perhaps replace remove the example if a new url to the restaurants website or article can't be found. Jbaggitt (talk) 23:53, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Wheat gluten which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 08:05, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Health, Nutrition, and Gluten

I'm a bit surprised that there is little, if any information about the nutritional value of seitan. Especially with all the gluten-free awareness today. How does the nutritional value of seitan compare to whole-grain wheat, and other meat substitutes such as tofu, and texturized vegetable protein. If nothing else, there should be a link to gluten under "See Also".Flight Risk (talk) 21:46, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree it would be good to have a section about the nutrition. Feel free to add it if you can find the sources. I'd expect it to be high in protein and low in carbs compared to whole-grain wheat. Regarding the link to gluten, it is already there in the first sentence. Vpab15 (talk) 21:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

What is this whole everything

"Wheat gluten is an alternative to soybean-based foods, such as tofu, which are sometimes used as a meat alternative. Some types of wheat gluten have a chewy or stringy texture that resembles meat more than other substitutes. Wheat gluten is often used instead of meat in Asian, vegetarian, vegan, Buddhist, and macrobiotic cuisines. Mock duck is a common use."

Is this a translation? It sounds like an AI pretending to be ESL with explicit instructions to violate as many policies on vagueness and weasel words as possible without actively attracting the attention of fixit bots. 2600:1016:B126:EF59:DCA0:9D37:C9F6:469F (talk) 07:46, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

"made from vital wheat gluten"

I'd like to change the "made from vital wheat gluten" in the lede as this is inaccurate. I don't see the need for reference apply, as it's more a matter of ready & synthesising the already given ones.

From this discussion page, there is an awareness that "Vital Wheat Gluten", or whatever is a commercial product that was only patented & brought to the market in the 1990s, when wheat gluten produce has an at least 1400 year old history. The term should probably be capitalized as a proper noun, because vital isn't being used here accurate nor as simple adjective.

Not for inclusion in the topic, but for discussion here, it appears to me that at some point the companies marketing Vital Gluten Powder have done a PR blitz not only on the Wikipedia, (see comment above [Talk:Seitan#Remove redirect for Vital Wheat Gluten]) but more widely across the internet to promote the idea that seitan is only made by using their product, rather than how it has been traditionally made for centuries.

At the very least, this might include a conditional, such as "it can also be made from ..." or "since the 1990s .." but the initial focus should be upon how it is made traditionally, otherwise the page is just being reduced to a misleading advert. I'll need to look at the rest of it to find the right balance.

A good comparative might be the topic on Custard, Vital Wheat Gluten being the equivalent of a packet of instant custard. It's probably fair to make a separate paragraph or even topic about Vital Wheat Gluten on it's own.

But it's not the only way, let along the authentic way, to make seitan.

Any objections?

Thanks.

-- Not a similar account name (talk) 17:29, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

General confusion & Shurtleff's reference

I tried to make a little sense of recent edits to the Etymology and wanted to raise a couple of observations at this point. I'll need to read the William Shurtleff & Akiko Aoyagi history of Seitan before going further however, in the first place, as much as I have a huge respect for their work, I have to wonder if it passes as a reliable source? Much of it would appear to be primary research, anecdotal, & unconfirmed. It's more of a 'work in progress' and a collection of notes than a finished worth.

Secondly, I think there is still an unresolved confusion between what is seitan, what is wheat gluten, what are certain commercial products (past & present) and I am not sure how to fix it, e.g. seitan isn't used in animal feed and pet food, although wheat gluten is.

Noting the Requested move above. I am not sure the right decision was made.

Strictly speaking, seitan is one of a number wheat gluten products. I would argue one way to process wheat gluten. As with much of Japanese culture, it is a reworking of a traditional Asian product/concept that existed long before its remarketing as "seitan".

The use of the term might be more dominant in the English language media, subject to the influence of the macrobiotic movement, but not so in other languages. How can it be retrospectively applied to products made 100 of years before the words coining?

Not a similar account name (talk) 14:06, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

When people use the term seitan nowadays, they are also referring to the Asian preparations (if not only referring to those), which is why they are inlcuded in the article-- Asian restaurants use the term "seitan" and so do nonmacrobiotic cookbooks Drew Stanley (talk) 03:13, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Last time I looked China, Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia, Vietnam etc were all "Asian" and they don't use the term seitan. And at least two of them have been other terms for over a 1,000 years.

However, I don't think you grasped the issue I am raising. Put simply, are all wheat gluten "mock meat" products seitan? Personally, I would argue no or at least underline a certain cross over or ambiguity between the two topic. For example, one can buy or asked to be served "mock duck" in countless Chinese restaurants & supermarkets, & none of them call it seitan.

Obviously, at this juncture, 60 years later, those Western nonmacroboitic cookbooks are just following or copying the original macrobiotic influences within the Anglosphere.

Not a similar account name (talk) 06:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I am not saying that all Asians use the term seitan. I am saying that the term seitan can refer to Asian or nonmacrobiotic preparations. Not all wheat gluten products are seitan, but anything that is referred to as seitan by a source we cite should be included in the article. There is a separate page on mock duck. If you have a better article where we can move the Preparation section, I don't mind. What are the other options? Drew Stanley (talk) 17:26, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wheat_gluten#Requested_move_6_August_2021

This is interesting.