Talk:William Pogue/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Eddie891 (talk · contribs) 20:49, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

I'll take this on. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 20:49, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Comments

• Shouldn't this article be located at William Pogue? The (astronaut) seems to me quite unnecessary
  • I have moved the article. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:13, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Sourcing

• What makes find a grave a reliable source in this context? See WP:FINDAGRAVE-EL
  • replaced. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:06, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• Standardize between Tulsa World and tulsaworld.com?
  • made consistent. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:06, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• What makes Bella Vista Funeral Home a reliable source?
  • replaced by book source. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:06, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• what makes collectSPACE reliable?
  • Written by a noted historian Robert Pearlman. Seems reasonably reliable to me? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:06, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
    • Fair enough Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:17, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Prose

• "(Col, USAF)" Interesting notation, never seen it in astronaut bios, I'd suggest just incorporating into the article?
  • It's literally in the same sentence, so I'll just remove Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "also an accomplished teacher," by what measure? May be puffery...
  • removed promotional wording Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "Pogue graduated from college and enlisted in the USAF and served for 24 years" could use the name of his college and year of enlistment
  • added. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "mathematics professor" where?
  • added Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "His NASA career includes one orbital mission as pilot of Skylab 4" -> included?
  • added 17:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• " a duration record of 84 days that was unbroken in NASA" duration of what?
  • Added context Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• " The mission is also noted for a dispute with" -> "the mission also had a"?
  • done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "degree in Education" should Education be capitalized or not?
  • changed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "degree in Mathematics" ditto
  • changed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "commission in 1952" commission as a _____?
  • I think it means he passed the cadet school. I've removed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:10, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "and a slot pilot" is there a possible link or clarification for slot pilot? I'm not familiar with that term
  • It's a technical term for someone at the USAF Thunderbirds. I believe it's for a rotational pilots, or trainee pilots. There's no article for it, sadly. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:10, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• You don't need to show the abbreviation for Royal Air Force (twice) because you don't actually use that abbreviation
  • removed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:10, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "was an Air Force Major at" pretty sure major can be de-capitalized
  • done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:10, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "went to the Manned Spacecraft Center from" maybe you could add where the center is (Houston, TX if I am not mistaken)?
  • added Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)}
• "Pogue logged 7,200 hours of flight time, including 4,200 hours in jet aircraft and 2,000 hours in space flight" before his NASA work? If it's including his NASA work, maybe put it later
  • moved Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:10, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "Group 5 for the" -> "Group 5 of the"?
  • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:17, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "(CAPCOM)" unused abbreviation
  • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:17, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "to the canceled Apollo missions" maybe add some explanation here?
• "the prime crew" what is 'prime crew'?
  • removed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:17, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "and Science Pilot Edward Gibson" should this be capitalized?
  • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:17, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• could use explanation of what the High Flight Foundation is
  • I have not the slightest clue on how to describe it... [1] It's a weird relegion/peace club, and they call themselves "goodwill ambassadors"? Any ideas? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:29, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "common questions he received" questions about what?
  • Added Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:25, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "most-recent marriage" try "last marriage"?
  • Of course! Until the extra marriage after death. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:25, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "awarded many special honors" maybe trim to "given many honors" or "many awards" or something with less qualifiers
  • Changed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:25, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• What does JSC stand for
  • Added the name Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:25, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "Alongside Pogue, the three Skylab astronaut crews" makes it sound like he wasn't in the crew. Maybe try "Three Skylab crews, including Pogue," or something like that
  • Changed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:25, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
• "Fédération Aéronautique Internationale" should use {{lang}} and be italicized?
  • done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:25, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

I've made some minor copyedits myself that I don't think need discussion. feel free to take issue with/discuss any/all of the above or any of my edits.

Thanks for taking a look at this Eddie891 - I've addressed the above. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:29, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Lee Vilenski, The Chicago Tribune describes the High Flight Foundation as "an interdenominational evangelical organization based in Colorado Springs" if that helps [2] Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 21:19, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Verifiability (spot-check &c)

• There's a discrepancy between the info-box and the article: the former says 13 hours 37 minutes EVA, the latter 13 hours and 34 minutes
  • 34 is correct, I've change in the box. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:28, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• could add 'Bill Pogue' as a nickname to the infobox
  • Added. There's no parameter for nickname, so I've added as a second name. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:28, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• "The crew completed 56 experiments, 26 science demonstrations, 15 subsystem detailed objectives, and 13 student investigations during 1,214 revolutions of the Earth" is pretty much the same as what the source says; I don't think it constitutes copyvio as per WP:LIMITED, but is there any way you could rephrase this?
  • Slightly reworded to stop close paraphrasing. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:28, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• "Pogue received a Bachelor of Science degree in education from Oklahoma Baptist University in Shawnee, Oklahoma, in 1951 and a Master of Science degree in mathematics from Oklahoma State University in Stillwater, Oklahoma, in 1960" ditto. How I might change this one would be "Pogue attended Oklahoma Baptist University in Shawnee, Oklahoma, graduating with a Bachelor of Science in 1951. In 1960, he graduated from Oklahoma State University in Stillwater, Oklahoma, with a Master of Science"
  • also changed. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:28, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• I don't see 21a sourcing quite everything there?
  • I'll find out what it says on the page 11 (continued), which I'd suggest would do so. Bare with me. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:41, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
    • So it's not covered in either part, so I've removed and recited. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:28, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• I don't see 9a citing that he was in the 'fifth air force'?
  • Added additional citation for this. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:41, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• 9b says he left the thunderbirds in 1958, and I don't see him joining in 1955, source says 'after the war', but that could technically be any year after the war
• 9c doesn't seem to mention solo or slot pilot?
  • Recited and reworded the two above. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:41, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• 9c says he applied to be an astronaut in 1962, but was rejected 'for lack of test pilot experience', could merit a mention
  • addedBest Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:41, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• 9d says the empire test pilot's school was part of the two year exchange
  • reworded.
• don't see 'Manned Spacecraft Center' or 'major' in 9e
  • Cited Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:44, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• 9f doesn't cite three marriages or birth dates of children
  • I have just removed the names and birth dates of the children. Our BLP policies state we shouldn't name them if they aren't independently notable, same with birth dates. I've added an additional citation for him having three kids (and 4 stepchildren) along with his wives. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:56, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Lee, unless I'm way off my mark, this article has somewhat of a sourcing issue. Now, as you are an experienced GA contributor, I am assuming that I've made a huge mistake somewhere and I'm not going to do anything rash. Could you please look over these sources and provide some explanation? I'm just curious what's going on, no hard feelings if you have to tell me that I made a huge mistake (or several). Best wishes, and good luck. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 21:56, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

• • I don't know about experienced! Sure, I don't have access to quite a few of the sources, due to living in the EEA, so was assuming things written by others were sourced correctly. No bother, this above seems easy enough to source/cull, and the rewording should be fine. Give me a mo and I'll see if there are more suitable citations. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:18, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
    • I still have one thing to fix on the sourcing, hope that's ok to leave on hold for a mo. Thanks for looking at this one for me. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:56, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
      • I've covered all of the above :). Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:28, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• I think 51b says he was awarded the Page Trophy on the 21, which would be eight (?) days after Page died.
  • Changed - I suspect I can't count. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:27, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• #11 is not published by google books
• ditto for #30. Both need page numbers (neither will hold up promotion, but might as well add it while you're here)
• Double check #2, I'm not seeing it all there
  • I've removed the dates (as I'd assume that's what you're referring to. I can't read that one at all, but from a small paragraph I managed to see through Google, it had some info on the siblings. If nothing is there I'll find an alternative. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:27, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
• Other than that sourcing is good as far as I can tell, though if you plan on taking it further I'd highly recommend going through and double checking all sourcing. I have access to all of the sources (I think), so if you need anything, just shoot me an e-mail or ask on-wiki and I can probably send it. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 16:43, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
  • I'll take a look at these tonight. Won't be likely for FAC for a long-time, I have a 7 article backlog at FA! Thanks for letting me know. I'm really appreciative for the review. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:47, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
    • Lee Vilenski: Sounds good to me! I've taken the liberty of converting 11 and 30 to {{cite book}}. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 16:59, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Right, I think I'm there. Just that one source I can't read as above, but otherwise all good Eddie891 Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:27, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

    Lee Vilenski, It also doesn't mention 'Margaret'. Comprehensiveness review to follow Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 23:17, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Comprehensiveness

I will mostly be using ProQuest and my Syracuse University Library subscription. If you need me to email you any articles, just ask

• there was a plaque erected to honor him in sand springs [3]
  • Added Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:05, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
• NYTimes obit says "A sense of the transcendent side of the experience, at the same time, led him to take part in the first and only outer space “strike,” as he and his fellow crew members later referred to it jokingly. The request for time off seemed to puzzle ground controllers at Cape Canaveral, Fla. In news briefings they described it as a possible sign of depression or medically caused lethargy in the crew, which also included Edward G. Gibson, a physicist, and Lt. Col. Gerald P. Carr, a Marine and the mission commander. Colonel Pogue, an Air Force officer, said neither was the case. He and the others just wanted more time to look out the window and think. The flight had made him “much more inclined toward humanistic feeling toward other people, other crewmen,” he told Science News in 1985. “I try to put myself into the human situation, instead of trying to operate like a machine.” In his 2011 autobiography, “But for the Grace of God,” Colonel Pogue said the tensions between the astronauts and their ground controllers came to a boil about six weeks into the mission. Unable to persuade their supervisors, they decided to stage their job action. It led to a compromise with controllers, which made the mood during the last six weeks of the flight much more pleasant, he wrote, for “studying the Sun, the Earth below, and ourselves.”" given that this 'strike' was in the headline of their obit, I could see a mention merited.
  • Added a paragraph on it. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:05, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
• commissioned into the air force as a second lieutenant, NTYimes obit again
  • Added Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:05, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
• his mission " held the record for the longest spaceflight until 1978, when Soviet cosmonauts spent 140 days on the space station Salyut 6." could use a mention, NYTimes obit again
  • Added Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:05, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
• "After retiring from NASA in 1975, he was a consultant to the aircraft manufacturers Martin Marietta (now Lockheed Martin) and Boeing, helping to develop space station technology." NYTimes obit again
  • Added Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:05, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
• "He also embarked on the lecture circuit and spoke at more than 500 schools and 100 civic clubs over 40 years" WaPo obit

And that should be it from here. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 23:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

• • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:14, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
    • Eddie891 - I have added the above. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:14, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

      Lee Vilenski, thanks for fixing all of these. The article is now well written, well referenced, well illustrated, comprehensive, and otherwise meets the GA criteria. I'm happy to pass. Nice work! Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:04, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I just would like to use this opportunity to say this was a fantastic GA Review. This is (probably clearly) not my most experienced area, but you did a great job working with me and getting the best for the article. Really well done. :) Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:37, 6 May 2020 (UTC)