Talk:Winchester Model 1200

comments

Okay, good work so far. Some issues (beyond grammar etc.)

first issue

Middle two sections sound very much like a "how to" manual, and should sound more like "this is what the weapon is, this is its difference from previous weapons, these are its uses, and these are its controversies." You might include a small section on maintenance and loading if it relates to these other issues. For example, if this model is simpler to maintain, or simpler to load, than the venerable predecessor...

second issue

needs proper citations. I've done one, sort of, toward the end. You need authors, publications, etc., plus page numbers. If you want to use the named reference template, let me know. See WP:Cite for more instructions on how to cite.

third issue

What is Olive drab? Is this a para-military group, a group of re-enactors, a supply? What makes them reliable?

Make sense? Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:07, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Winchester 1200/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: S Masters (talk) 03:36, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Comments:

• "The major parts of the shotgun which must be destroyed are the receiver and magazine group, the barrel assembly and bayonet assembly, the breech bolt group and the trigger guard group." - I know that the different groups have specific meaning, however, given that so many of them are not working pages, I suggest you just wikify magazine, barrel, bayonet, etc. instead of magazine group, etc.
• There are issues with the references and citation sections. There are retrieved dates missing; 2, 7 and 9, and the citation section are not in the right format. Please refer to WP:REF to see how they should be presented.

I will put this article On Hold for up to seven days. Let's try and see if we can resolve these issues.

Thanks for the speedy review of my article. I will try to fix those couple things as soon as possible, but I this week is rather busy for me because finals are right around the corner. Hopefully I can have it finished by the end of the week. I'll send you a message when I fix those things for you to review.Mzwhiz21 (talk) 14:38, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Ok, please let me know when all of the improvements have been completed. Good luck with your exams. -- S Masters (talk) 10:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Final summary: Thank you for all your work in making this a better article. I am confident that it now meets all the requirements for a Good Article, and can be passed. Well done! -- S Masters (talk) 07:39, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Clarification

This phrase is used verbatim twice in the article: "The Model 1200 is a takedown type of shotgun; meaning that it can be taken apart for easy storage and transportation." Just wondering if its necessary. Also, the term extremities is used once when discussing cleaning the weapon - just checking that this is the right term. Great article! Ragfin (talk) 14:03, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Not only is it not necessary, it's not even true. While the Winchester 1887 and 12 were takedown models, the 1200 series lacks this ability. I have removed this section from the article.75.141.253.81 (talk) 17:06, 21 July 2016 (UTC)Tim

Name

Hi, Shoulden't the page title be Winchester Model 1200, as with Winchester Model 1897, Winchester Model 1912 and most of the others? --Amendola90 (talk) 10:28, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

slanted toward military model

The article reads like it was adapted from a field manual for the military version. Most versions in circulation in the US are the civilian version for hunting and clay target shooting, some home defense use of the extended magazine version, and police use. It was intended to replace the Model 12, which also was used (in declining order of numbers) by hunters, target shooters, police and military. Naaman Brown (talk) 14:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

companion to the 1400

The Winchester Model 1200 pump action shotgun was developed in parallel with the Winchester Model 1400 semi-auto shotgun; (Numrich Gun Parts Corp. Firearms Parts Catalog lists a number of parts in common between the two models.) Naaman Brown (talk) 14:16, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Removed "destruction to prevent capture" info

Had nothing to do with M1200's history, and is nothing more than standard military boilerplate to be found in technical manuals for any piece of equipment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.152.84.99 (talk) 05:45, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Wars

Only two wars are listed: Vietnam and Darfur. Surely a weapon that's so widespread and in US Army inventories as late as the 2000s was used in other wars the US was involved in? Hairy Dude (talk) 01:09, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Criminal use

The Criminal Use section was recently removed with the explanation "This is just a list that doesn't explain the relevance of these crimes or how they impact the firearm in question. As such it's an undue list." I'm not sure why there's an expectation that listed items "impact" the firearm somehow (it's not part of WP:UNDUE), and it's unclear why this would apply to Criminal Use but not the adjacent list of Users. I support including this section as an expansion of our coverage on the topic. –dlthewave ☎ 03:01, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Dlthewave, how can you possibly claim this is a reasonable list to have in the article? First, none of the listed shootings explain why they are significant with respect to this firearm. You haven't shown WEIGHT per ONUS, you have just restored a list. Now look at the citations here. A number are blogs and other unreliable sources. Some have no source at all. And again, per the long discussion we had here [[1]] I would hope that you get the idea of showing the relevance beyond, "well it was used in that crime". That isn't a standard that has been upheld.

• 1975 St. Pius X High School shooting
• 1984 San Ysidro McDonald's massacre
• 2000 Wakefield massacre - 1300
• 2003 Lockheed Martin shooting
• 2005 Mayerthorpe tragedy
• 2006 Capitol Hill massacre - 1300 Defender
• 2009 Carthage nursing home shooting - 1300
• 2009 Napier shootings - sawed-off 1300
• 2012 Toulouse and Montauban shootings
• 2014 Las Vegas shootings - 1300

Sources

Springee (talk) 03:34, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Improved list

Here's a shortened version with improved sourcing:

• 1984 San Ysidro McDonald's massacre - 1200
• 2000 Wakefield massacre - 1300
• 2003 Lockheed Martin shooting - 1200
• 2006 Capitol Hill massacre - Defender
• 2014 Las Vegas shootings - 1300

Sources

–dlthewave ☎ 17:35, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Why would you use primary sources like the cga.ct.gov sources and also the vpc.org source isnt great either. The CNN source is a passing mention same with semantic. None of those sources establish due weight. Nor do they show any impact on the firearm itself. PackMecEng (talk) 18:05, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Let's get back to the core question. In what way was the use of this commonly available firearm in any of these particular crimes notable with respect to the firearm itself? Did people call for the additional regulation or banning of the Model 1200 after these crimes? Were these the guns used in the crime or just happened to be recovered? Take the Vegas shooting. Is there any evidence the 1300 was even used? I mean after that crime there was a lot of talk about AR-15s and the like but not much discussion of shotguns. Regardless, until weight can be shown with respect to the firearms I'm opposed to this type of content. Springee (talk) 18:32, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Side note, this article should probably be renamed to include 1300 since that is what the first sentence says the article covers. A number of the cited crimes use the 1300, not 1200. Springee (talk) 18:32, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

Winchester Model 1200

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: No consensus to delist. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:48, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Sourcing issues: inline citations missing for certain claims, some sources unreliable or failing WP:V. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:01, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

AirshipJungleman29, could you be more specific please. It would help in addressing these issues. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:54, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Three sources are incomprehensible if you don't speak Russian, one citation links to a 96-page document in Polish with no detail/quote/page number, the variants section is almost completely unsourced, there are statistics unsourced by inline citations. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 02:03, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

AirshipJungleman29, I agree re the variants section. I think I have fixed two of your other concerns. Could you please be specific as to which material (statistics) give you concern. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:11, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

The specifications in the infobox need to either be sourced in the body or in the box itself; thanks for your other improvements. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:01, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

• Brief lede, lacks content. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

• I agree that there is scope for improvement. I have done some editing, including adding some references. I would observe that the volume of content is not a criteria but whether the content is adequate for the subject. It might be useful if any deficiency in content could be identified. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:01, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

• I am working on this in my sandbox. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:52, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

• Moved version in full from my sandbox. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:46, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

• The citations still need work: some are from unreliable sources such as YouTube, some are inaccessible such as those from olive-drab.com, and some are dubious such as the numerous gun websites; I cannot comment on the reliability of the latter, but I will have to ask for expert opinion if they remain. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:41, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi AirshipJungleman29, there are two Youtube videos cited for their visual content only. The first is a cut-away of a Model 12 which clearly shows it has a tilting breechblock. It also show only one slide rail. The second, of a deer combo as supplied by Winchester, with box label and corresponding contents. I would think these are both fit for purpose. Olive Drab is a legacy source which I have retained on face value, in that while it is now dead, it was verifiable. It is used to support that the AR-7 was the first using a rotating bolt and the years that the 1200 was acquired by the army. To the former, that might be removed without detriment to the article (IMHO). There are a number of published sources (google books here) but they cannot be viewed and I do not have access to them. In short, I have tried to do the best I can with what I have. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 02:07, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Some links

https://web.archive.org/web/20100427044015/http://www.winchesterguns.com/customerservice/qna/detail.asp?id=243 winchester timeline

https://modernfirearms.net/en/shotguns/u-s-a-shotguns/winchester-1200-2/

https://modernfirearms.net/en/shotguns/u-s-a-shotguns/winchester-1300-eng/ only slight modifications

https://www.gun-tests.com/shotguns/winchester-1200-defender-12-gauge/

https://tvd.im/small-arms/4966-winchester-model-1200.html 1200 manual

https://gunvalues.gundigest.com/winchester-repeating-arms/model-1300-series/ values/description of 1300 configs

https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.php?smallarms_id=109#specifications

https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.php?smallarms_id=231

http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/winchester_1200.pdf

https://www.winchesterguns.com/content/dam/winchester-repeating-arms/support/owners-manuals/model1300-manual-om-s.pdf 1300 manual

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_1159482#:~:text=Winchester%20Ranger%20Model%20120%20Slide%20Action%20Shotgun%20%7C%20National%20Museum%20of%20American%20History museum item description model 120

https://www.searsguns.com/

https://www.searsguns.com/single-post/2020/08/15/the-ted-williams-model-200-manual

Cinderella157 (talk) 06:25, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Books

https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/The_History_of_Winchester_Firearms_1866/T-Irz4qHwsQC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=winchester+model+1200&pg=PA151&printsec=frontcover recoil reduction system from 1966 plus other details

https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/Gun_Trader_s_Guide_Thirty_Fourth_Edition/svRDCgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=winchester+model+1200&pg=PA563&printsec=frontcover some 1300 versions

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=eWkKYPfhd_gC&pg=PA153&dq=winchester+model+1200&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4nPTCqNb-AhU0mlYBHZuHDdYQ6AF6BAgDEAI#v=onepage&q=winchester%20model%201200&f=false 1200/1300 basically the same

https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/Winchester_Shotguns/iG2CDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=winchester+model+1200&pg=PT692&printsec=frontcover basic version of 1200

https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/Gun_Trader_s_Guide_Thirty_Sixth_Edition/jSqCDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=winchester+model+1200&pg=RA1-PA397&printsec=frontcover versions

https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/G1068.pdf recoil reduction system

https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/Shooter_s_Bible_and_Gun_Trader_s_Guide_B/RWSCDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=winchester+model+1200&pg=PT3626&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/Winchester_An_American_Legend/5nSCDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=winchester+model+1200&pg=PT835&printsec=frontcover about 12 and 2200 models

Cinderella157 (talk) 11:06, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

https://www.rockislandauction.com/riac-blog/trench-gun-shotguns-for-ferocious-fighting

Cinderella157 (talk) 01:32, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/the-last-trench-gun-the-winchester-1200/

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/combat-shotguns-of-the-vietnam-war/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aurNniWx0v8 Ranger combo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5dazbwDOuM stripping

https://www.winchesterguns.com/content/dam/winchester-repeating-arms/support/faq/serial-number-reference/winchester-firearm-manufacture-dates.pdf serial numbers 120/1200/1300

Orphaned references in Winchester Model 1200

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Winchester Model 1200's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Jones":

• From Malta: Jones, Huw R. (1973). "Modern emigration from Malta". Transactions of the Institute of British Geographers. 60 (60): 101–119. doi:10.2307/621508. JSTOR 621508.
• From List of equipment of the Royal Brunei Land Forces: Jones, Richard (2009). Jane's Infantry Weapons 2009–2010. Jane's Information Group. pp. 896–898. ISBN 978-0-7106-2869-5.

Reference named "Davis":

• From United States: Davis, Glyn; Dickinson, Kay; Patti, Lisa; Villarejo, Amy (2015). Film Studies: A Global Introduction. Abingdon: Routledge. p. 299. ISBN 9781317623380. Retrieved 24 August 2020.
• From Algeria: Robert Davis (2003). Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500–1800. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 978-0-333-71966-4.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT⚡ 15:35, 11 May 2023 (UTC)