Talk:Tax withholding

Untitled

I have restructured the article by type of tax to facilitate enhancement. Much of the substantive content from the last version is retained. The prior discussion item is addressed. The article now covers specific examples from several jurisdiction, and hopefully is not overly U.S. centric. I tried to broaden the scope of the article in a generalized way, eliminating a few specifics that may change from year to year other than in notes. Comments & enhancements welcome!Sfcardwell (talk) 21:50, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposed reversion of changes to introduction

The changes to the introduction by DMahalko would limit the scope of the article to wage withholding and self employed individual estimated taxes in the U.S. The article as expanded was much more globalized and broader. I plan to revise the introduction to close to what my last edit was (with maybe some fine tuning), unless DMahalko indicates why the intro should be so narrow.Sfcardwell (talk) 03:58, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

This is a general-purpose encyclopedia, read by everyone including kids in school. Do not write the article for lawyers, because they will already know all this stuff anyway. The excessive use of obscure words and phrasing in the rest of this article sucks and it should be rewritten using language that normal people use.

as a means of ensuring collection thereof ??

Who the hell talks like that in normal everyday language? Dumb it down Sfcardwell. We don't all have doctorates here.

If individual sections are needed to cover differences by country, then so be it. Not every country is going to do things the same way anyway. DMahalko (talk) 12:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. I think dumbing down is not the answer, but I understand the need for better, simpler lead-ins, and introductions to the topic. I will write a new intro, and expend the "Basics" section. For beginning readers and those with limited English skills, check the alternate Simple English Wikipedia. Check back in about a week. Regards, Sfcardwell (talk) 22:47, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Dumbing down is NOT Wikipedia policy

To DMahalko: please see Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable just before the heading Articles that are too technical. That essay states, "Do not "dumb-down" the article in order to make it more understandable. Accessibility is intended to be an improvement to the article for the benefit of the less-knowledgeable readers (who may be the largest audience), without reducing the value to more technical readers." Also see WP:Tone regarding formal versus informal wording.

Please note that you are introducing material that is inaccurate and deleting important portions of the article. Withholding tax applies to more than just employees. Nearly every national jurisdiction that imposes an income tax also imposes a withholding tax on payments to foreign persons. Also, withholding taxes are often "final" taxes, not requiring filing a return by the withheld party. Before writing, please check your sources. See, e.g., IRS Publication 515 and IRS publication 1281, both of which describe withholding in the U.S. on other than wages. For a list of IRS forms & publications on withholding, see http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=215527,00.html.

I am in the process of writing a revised introduction and Basics section that will address your legitimate concerns without sacrificing article quality. Please be at least a little patient for that change. Sfcardwell (talk) 02:51, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

It is clear you enjoy pummeling readers with your 30 years of taxation experience (look at how brilliant your writing is! wow!). However if you can explain a topic without needing to use ridiculously stuffy terminology such as "thereof" and "obligations" then don't. This is not a complex topic requiring excessive elucidation but you are making it unnecessarily so that way. DMahalko (talk) 04:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

In what way is a "taxpayer" potentially not a business or organization? The intro as I rewrote it can equally apply to any taxpayer, whether individual, business, or corporation. I fail to see what you think is being excluded. DMahalko (talk) 05:01, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Lead

I have rewritten the lead ection because of a number of issues with the previous version:

• it implies that withholding tax (WHT) only applies to employment income. Most countries (though not the US) apply WHT to domestic interest and dividends at least.
• it is debatable whether WHT is for taxes that taxpayers "do not yet owe"
• it confuses WHT and "estimated taxes" in the US system. They are quite different.
• it mentions self-employed taxpayers withhout explaining any connection with WHT--Mhockey (talk) 10:05, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, good clean-up. The nonsense version seems to have crept in over that last six months or so – your cleaned-up version is not much different from what it was last year! --Red King (talk) 23:37, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

redirect to withholding

there is no such thing as a tax on withholding, rather the term withholding is used to describe the process used to collect ss insurance payments, underemployment insurance payments and income tax payments. Darkstar1st (talk) 01:39, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

there is an income tax, fuel tax, phone tax, sales tax, estate tax, Ad infinitum, however no one has ever been taxed for withholding a sum of money from a paycheck. Darkstar1st (talk) 01:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Nevertheless in the real world, the tax type is called a witholding tax, per WP:Common name, this is where the article will stay. --Red King (talk) 21:05, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

since the article is mostly unsourced, would you have a link to "witholding tax" maybe in the tax code somewhere or in a book about taxes, maybe a textbook? Darkstar1st (talk) 21:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand how you say an article with 20 footnotes is mostly unsourced. See the items in the footnotes. For references to withholding tax or withholding of tax, for USA, see, e.g., IRS Publication 15, Chapter 9, 26 USC 1441, 1445, 1446, and 3401, all of which refer to "withholding of tax ...", and 26 USC 3102 and 3202, which refer to "deduction of tax from wages"; for UK, see, e.g., Pay-as-you-earn tax, the HMRC website regarding PAYE, HMRC chart on withholding taxes under treaties; for Canada, see, e.g., CRA web site on deduction of tax from wages. Please help improve the article by adding citations to reliable sources and further internationalize the article. If you fee the article should be titled differently, please propose here for discussion.Oldtaxguy (talk) 00:48, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

chapter 9. Withholding From Employees' Wages:

• Income Tax Withholding. The Federal Insurance Contributions aka FICA and INCOME tax is being collected. "The Federal *Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) provides for a federal system of old-age, survivors, disability, and hospital insurance."

• Insurance is a form of risk management primarily used to hedge against the risk of a contingent, uncertain loss. Insurance is the equitable transfer of the risk of a loss, from one entity to another, in exchange for payment.
• A tax "is not a voluntary payment or donation, but an enforced contribution, exacted pursuant to legislative authority" One is a choice, the other a law. Darkstar1st (talk) 16:02, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

And your point is ??? Suggest you read the law, not just titles given to the bills passed by Congress. For example, 26 USC 3101(a) states, "OLD-AGE, SURVIVIRS, AND DISABILITY INSURANCE.--In addition to other taxes, there is hereby imposed on the income of every individual a tax equal ..." 26 USC 3101(b) states, "HOSPITAL INSURANCE.--In addition to the tax imposed by the preceding subsection, there is hereby imposed on the income of every individual a tax equal to ..." These are both clearly taxes. They are not voluntary. See 26 USC 3501(a): "The taxes imposed by this subtitle shall be collected by the Secretary and shall be paid into the Treasury of the United States as internal-revenue collections." For collection deadlines, see 26 USC sections 6301, et seq, particularly 26 USC 6302(g): "Deposits of social security taxes and withheld income taxes.--If, under regulations prescribed by the Secretary, a person is required to make deposits of taxes imposed by chapters 21, 22, and 24 on the basis of eighth-month periods, such person shall make deposits of such taxes on the 1st banking day after any day on which such person has $100,000 or more of such taxes for deposit." For jail time related to willfully not paying, see 26 USC 7202, "WILLFUL FAIRLURE TO COLLECT OR PAY OVER TAX. Any person required under this title to collect, account for, and pay over any tax imposed by this title who willfully fails to collect or truthfully account for and pay over such tax shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a felony and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than $10,000, or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both, together with the costs of prosecution." Social Security, Medicare, and other taxes are not "voluntary" and are not "insurance", they are taxes. Failure to pay them can result in penalties and jail time. Oldtaxguy (talk) 16:48, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

you bring up an interesting point, social security and unemployment are not actually insurance as the name implies, typical Orwellian newspeak. There is no tax on the act of withholding funds from a paycheck. The term is a misnomer created by the conflation of income and fica tax. many people who do not pay income tax do not realize they pay not income tax assuming the "withholding tax" is a tax on income. Darkstar1st (talk) 18:01, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

US practice, world practice

Also, please do not confuse US practice with world practice. Most of the foregoing is about US practice. Elsewhere in the world, in the EU for example, 'witholding tax' is best known on dividend income taken by the country where the paying company is based. The tax payer resident in another country may get a 'tax credit'. There is even a European Union witholding tax directive that defines how this internal market should operate equitably as between member states. Witholding tax is a very real thing. --Red King (talk) 22:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

a tax on dividend income is just that, in the usa we call it capital income gains tax. Tax follows the object being taxed, like gas tax, phone tax, real estate tax, income tax, etc. there is no tax on "withholding", rather the term describes the method of collection. Darkstar1st (talk) 23:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Tax withholding/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

==WP Tax Class== Start class because needs more references and section on history and impact.EECavazos 03:17, 6 November 2007 (UTC) ==WP Tax Priority== High priority becuase an important concept within individual nations and in international taxation, also likely high traffic because the article focuses on the basic topic.EECavazos 03:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 03:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 10:48, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 17 January 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 02:02, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

---

Withholding tax → Tax withholding – The term "Withholding tax" implies that it is a specific tax or a tax on withholding (the same way that income tax is a tax on income, fuel tax is a tax on fuel, sales tax is a tax on sales, etc. The term "Tax withholding" refers to the more generic practice of withholding taxes from payments, and can refer to the numerous systems mentioned in the article, as well as other systems worldwide.

Per Oldtaxguy in the #redirect to withholding section above, The United States doesn't call it a "withholding tax": it either refers to it as "withholding of tax" or "deduction of tax from wages". The UK calls their system "Pay as You Earn" and never uses the word "Withholding". Australia calls their system "Pay as You Go" and uses the terms "Tax withheld", "PAYG withholding", or uses "withholding tax" as a verb (e.g. "withholding tax from wages"). Canada uses "withholding from amounts paid" or "withholding on payments" in their actual laws, but uses "withholding tax" as a shorthand for "withholding tax rate" in some of their explanatory documents. India calls their system "Tax deduction at source". Not even mentioned in this article is France's "Prélèvement à la source" ("tax to the source"), New Zealand's "Pay as you Earn", or Ireland's "Pay as You Earn". --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:07, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

References

• Support Rreagan007 (talk) 19:57, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support – this seems sensible, and is certainly the common name over the current title. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:26, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.