Talk:Wonderful World!!

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: All moved (non-admin closure) --Mdann52talk to me! 15:21, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

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• Wonderful World!! → Wonderful World!! (Kanjani Eight song)
• Help Me!! → Help Me!! (Morning Musume song)
• Help Me! → Help Me! (Marcy Levy and Robin Gibb song)

– I don't think !! works as a disambiguator per either WP:CRITERIA or WP:DAB for Japanese songs that have no English print sources, i.e. no Billboard mentions. These "!!" aren't consistently present in the vast number of vanilla Google html hits. Given that there are major songs in English a dab is needed for readers using the right hand top search box to find the Japanese song rather than Wonderful World (Sam Cooke song) Wonderful World (Elvis Presley song), Wonderful World (James Morrison song) plus other album songs listed on Wonderful World a long dab list. The same is true with the other Japanese song compared to Help Me (Sonny Boy Williamson II song), Help Me (Joni Mitchell song), Help Me (Nick Carter song), Help Me (Alkaline Trio song), Help Me (Tinchy Stryder song) plus Help Me long dab list. (!! can continue to redirect to the Japanese songs as anyone who really does know the !! difference can still use it). In ictu oculi (talk) 04:24, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

• PS - I see there's also Help Me! (no, please don't look, you have to guess the artist). Not sure that ! is any more helpful with the ! song than the !! song, but at least Help Me! (again, please do not cheat by looking, you are supposed to know the artist from the "!" without looking) is an English language song and consequently has English print sources (Though the English print sources don't have the !), if anyone wants to add it to the RM will support. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:35, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I have added it per Moscow Connection objection below. as noted books don't have the "!" for the Levy/Gibb song And dab should be (Kanjani Eight song) In ictu oculi (talk) 09:14, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Why move the Japanese songs and not move the English-language song "Help Me!"? It looks like a double standard. English Wikipedia is not an American Wikipedia. American Billboard writes the title of the Kanjani Eight's song as "Wonderful World!!", so we have an English-language source here. The song by Morning Musume peaked at the second position on the Billboard Japan Hot 100 charts, so it's a bit harder to find online. But if you have Billboard magazines from January—February 2013, you can look it up. --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, yes that's a source for !!. Those concerns are somewhat secondary to whether readers can distinguish songs by [ ] or [  !] or [  !!], also Billboard webpage gives the name of the group: Kanjani Eight next to the song. It isn't just [Help Me!! (guess who?)]. The point is that this song isn't the only Help Me song so needs to be disambiguated. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:14, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. Surely Billboard would give the name of the group in its charts. I don't understand why you want to disambuguate "Help Me!!" why not wanting to do the same for "Help Me!". For example, I've looked at the "Help Me!" article and can't remember the names of the people who performed it. (Surely, I can remember one.) And I've never heard the song. It would be WP:BIAS to leave the article where it is now and rename the wastly more popular at the moment Japanese songs.
By the way, there is no source needed for the exclamation marks cause they are in the title.
I think the right way to do it is to propose a rule that any titles that differ only by exclamation marks, commas, etc. (punctuation marks) need to be disambiguated. Right now, there no rule like that. And the way you renamed only the Japanese songs is very strange. --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you in fact, I think there should be a rule that ! is not sufficient disambiguation.

The problem with many J-Pop and K-pop songs is twofold (a) lack of coverage in English sources, and (b) the English title is often (not in this case) a semi-invented title on fan sites or for overseas marketing, or a subtitle, for what is a phrase in Japanese in Korean. But in this particular case the issue is (c), that no one can identify a song by [ ] [ !] or [ !!] and thus a title that depends on [ ] [ !] or [ !!] fails WP:CRITERIA and WP:DAB. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:27, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

This may well be the problem with many songs, but not with this particular ones. Both titles are in English, "Help me!!" and "Wonderful World!!" (yes, exactly like here in the English Wikipedia). As for the capitalization, songs in Spanish and French and many other languages also capitalized differently. It's just a technical change. --Moscow Connection (talk) 06:51, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Two days ago I didn't notice you had added "Help Me!" to this nomination. Also, you have already found and renamed the album Wonderful World! by The Kelly Family. Now I don't have objections. But still, please don't pick only on Japanese songs. :) -Moscow Connection (talk) 06:51, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support the updated nomination. Since the nominator had added "Help Me!" by Marcy Levy and Robin Gibb to this nomination and also yesterday found and renamed "Wonderful World!"→"Wonderful World! (The Kelly Family album)", the proposal looks reasonable, I have no objections. --Moscow Connection (talk) 06:51, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

  I'm deleting my vote cause a discussion somewhere else convinced me that WP:DAB doesn't care about the Wikipedia search box. So I think it's against the current guidelines to move the pages. Also, the nom moved some other Japanese page and didn't correct links to point to the new location, which resulted in it completely disappearing from the search box suggestions. I don't think it's fair. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:06, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

• These are slightly different issues, so an unbundled request may have been better. Here's my split decision:

• Oppose Wonderful World!! → Wonderful World!! (Kanjani8 song) With no other usage including even one exclamation point, this is fine NATURAL disambiguation, and an unlikely search term for the other entries at the dab Wonderful World.
• Support Help Me!! → Help Me!! (Morning Musume song) and Help Me! → Help Me! (Marcy Levy and Robin Gibb song) It's unreasonable to expect readers to remember whether this song had one exclamation point or that one had two. While the status quo is also natural disambiguation here, it's really not intuitive enough to go with alone.

--BDD (talk) 21:25, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

There is usage of Wonderful World! with just one exclamation point, it just wasn't properly indicated in The Kelly Family template or in the dab page - but an image search on covers would have indicated it. There's almost always another song, another album because Wikipedia's volunteers naturally mainly cover current pop 2000-2014, but popular music has been heavily documented in sources since the invention of printing. There is a whole five centuries of popular music 1500-2000 which en.wp isn't properly covering. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:23, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Ok, good enough for me. Support all. --BDD (talk) 18:28, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support all per nom. Exlcaimation points are extraneous material that are frequently misplaced. -- 65.94.76.3 (talk) 05:48, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

• The double exclamation mark was never intended to be a disambiguator. It is, in fact, the title of the song. "Wonderful World!!", all official source material list the song as such. Excuse my Wikipedia ignorance on this "issue" but I don't see what the problem is. Ladymercury (talk) 13:02, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Natural disambiguation is still disambiguation. --BDD (talk) 18:28, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support per nom. I can't see any reason why a casual reader would know, understand or appreciate disambiguation by punctuation. Just because something can be done does not mean it must be done... Cheers, prosperous New Year etc. --Richhoncho (talk) 14:34, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
• Support per nom. The punctuation is inconsistent in sources and is not present when the song title is pronounced, and including the artist name is generally helpful. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:40, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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