Talk:World Genseiryū Karatedō Federation

"Fresh Start" Proposal

After 24 hours have passed, I'd like to archive the present talk page and start anew. The new focus will be on article content, not contributors and lengthy comments will be discouraged. Instead, editors will propose the exact text they want to see in the article (with sources). We will start with the opening sentence. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:13, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Peter Lee (talk) 15:19, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree and also offer my services as a go-between for the two "main editors" Peter and Mario. My research has uncovered very little information in English with regards to the federation. I am currently working on 4 other projects, so my time will not be unlimited, but I do believe this to be a worthy cause. - 4twenty42o (talk) 16:26, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Haven't heard from Mario. Plus, the notability discussion below needs to be resolved as we need to establish WP:ORG can be met. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:13, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Neil, I was thinking a few things over, plus I have the kid (16 months old boy! D'ya know what kind of stress that is?! ;-) ) all alone (since the wife is in Japan at the moment), so I can't be busy with this ALL the time... I already have spent way too much time on it... You'll understand... To the point: I see Peter has again written a loooooong story down here. My congratulations to his suddenly changed attitude, but I am not gonna react to anything he writes any more. It all comes down to the same: he keeps disagreeing and referring to some "documents" that proof nothing. He keeps claiming that I contradict myself, which is NOT true. Okay, I will react to that one, to explain: the book Shukumine wrote is indeed called "Shin Karatedō Kyōhan" that translates into something like "The Teaching Methods of the New Karatedō". Indeed, he doesn't mention the name of the style, Genseiryu... I say now, do you know Gichin Funakoshi? The founder of Shotokan? He also wrote a book about "his" style. Do you know what it is called? "Karatedō Kyōhan" ("The teaching methods of Karatedo")! This book also doesn't contain the name of the style of Shotokan! Also his other four books, they all talk about "karate" in a general way, without mentioning the name of the style. That was common at the time. Japanese karate masters didn't care about the name of the style they created. They only wanted it to be good and they wanted to pass it on. The name is not important. Not convinced? Check the books that were written by Chōjun Miyagi, the creator of Gōjū-ryū. Check the books of Ōyama Masutatsu, the founder of Kyokushin kaikan. Four of his five books don't mention the name of the style, they just talk about "karate". I have a book on the shelf called "Karate", by Marcel Meeus, 1987 (ISBN9002158815). Nowhere in the book, the name of the style is mentioned. Only by the tribute page for Gichin Funakoshi (page 14) people can understand it's about SHOTOKAN, but only if they understand that Funakoshi was the creator of it... Oh, and I tried to explain before: Koryū (古流) is NOT a name, it only means "old school", and that is exactly what Shukumine did: combine old techniques (Koryū) with new ones, to come to Genseiryū. So what if he called his kata "Koryū" kata? That doesn't make any difference to Genseiryū... So, I was NOT contradicting myself AT ALL... Now, back to Seiken Shukumine: no matter what he called the kata, the kata are in the book and they were then and they are now considered Genseiryu kata. What's in a name? That's all I want to say about Peter's reaction down here. The rest I leave as it is (which does NOT mean I agree with it). However, if you (or anybody else) have any specific questions, I'll be happy to answer them. WGKF is what it is. The sources are what they are. I mentioned 2 books, I mentioned the agreement of the WGKF itself, I mentioned the website of the official Genseiryu headquarters and I mentioned a Taidō site (a different martial art that is not connected to WGKF). That should be enough. I see numerous articles on Wikipedia with a lot less references. Now it's up to some Japanese speaking editor to check the Japanese references, but I did my utmost to create a NPOV article. I would like to add more, but I can't find the right references. So, I will refrain from adding that. If anybody still would like to dispute the whole article, I think it should be done by a sentence by sentence breakdown of the article, just like Neil suggested above... Oh, and if you want to archive this talk page, that is totally fine with me... Hopefully everybody will from then on focus on the content and nothing else but the current content... Now, back to life. Hey, somebody's gotta cook tonight... -- MarioR 19:41, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Geez if Wikipedia paid by the word you guys would clean up :-) I've parsed through Peter's and your response and don't think I found anything about the organization's notability. Am I wrong? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:52, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Totally agree! I wouldn't mind being paid at all, then I can quit my job as a pilot... ;-) But, seriously, if somebody claims that I am contradicting myself where I am not, I have to say something about it. And with Peter, you have to explain it as detailed as possible and come up with many, many examples, otherwise... Oh, what the heck, who am I kidding? Even then he will still say the opposite... Now that is exactly why I will now refrain from reacting to Peter Lee's comments. Let's keep it to the subject and let's do some good to the article from now on! MarioR 21:37, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

WOW, what a lot of stuff to read. Super, I never know what else to do anyway. My life IS Wikipedia.....not! This is getting trivial. Unfortunately I cannot reply briefly, so I guess we will have to do this for a while longer. First of all, how can we communicate, if the peoples involved deny to react and response to the things put here? Impossible. Anyway, here are some responses to Mario's last input. The Shin Karate-do Kyohan CANNOT be a reference in regard to the WGKF or more especially Genseiryū, as this was written by Mr. Shukumine and published in 1964 a total of 39 years before the WGKF ever existed on paper. There is no dispute in the fact, that Mr. Shukumine NEVER called his kata or techniques as Genseiryū in that book. He used the term Ko-ryu. Even today, that is still the name Taido people call the katas, when they perform them for show as a tribute to the legacy and history of Taido (meaning also Genseiryū, as we have the same "father"). We agree so far I believe? If the WGKF DECIDE to go against the world and make a complete new basis for the understanding of what Genseiryū is, then the WGKF can do that. But it will never be anything else than that! Namely a decision based not on the past and the history of Genseiryū, but on a few peoples agreement (the document posted earlier by Mario Roering). What was decided in that meeting contradict EVERYTHING the rest of the world INCLUDING the official national karate federation in Japan (Japan Karate-do Federation, JKF) has perceived as Genseiryū for more than half a century now. There is nothing to discuss about these facts. Mario even agree to those facts. Shukumine did NOT publish a book on Genseiryū, that we agree upon. But if WGKF will use it as their guide, fine, peace be with the WGKF. But please refrain from calling it Genseiryū, or choking everyone else with the contradictions decided by the WGKF. As it is done in that way by the WGKF, as has been done in the past as well, it is a way of insulting everyone else. And as Mario Roering very well know, this way of attacking people or organizations different from the WGKF is not only done here at Wikipedia, it has been a sport only the WGKF people are masters at. Sorry, but no offense here, I merely state the facts as it is even today and has been for many years unfortunately. You know EXACTLY what I am talking about Mario, but ok, that is not directly related to this article in question. Sorry for the detour. Your examples in regard to Shotokan, Goju-ryu etc. has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to that of Genseiryū. The books you refer to are all written long time BEFORE the 2nd World War, meaning BEFORE other styles of karate spread to mainland Japan. But we agree that Funakoshi (Shotokan) never or only VERY rarely mentioned Shotokan as a style in his books. But the reason as you write it here, is completely wrong. The fact is, and this is also written by Funakoshi in his books, that he NEVER named his form of karate. He never invented the name Shotokan (Shotokan-ryu in Japanese). The name Shotokan was never intended to be used as a name of their style. In Japanese the part KAN of Shotokan means building. Funakoshi was fund of writing poems, he was a school teacher. When he wrote these poems he always signed them Shoto. It was his chosen "artist name". When the first dojo (place of training) was build and stood ready, the students named the building ShotoKAN after their master (Funakoshi). Funakoshi never named his style of karate, nor did the Nippon Karate-do Kyokai (Japan Karate Assosicaiton, JKA. Not be confused with Japan Karate-do Federation, JKF), which was founded by Funakoshi. Even to this day, you usually never or only very very rarely see the mentioning of Shotokan-ryu within the organizations of Shotokan. They all consider Karate as karate, not styles. The styles were named (including Shotokan-ryu) because the other masters of Okinawa karate was left out from influence. They thus started their own organizations and found a new name for each of their respective styles/forms of karate in order to distinguish themselves from that of Shotokan-ryu. Even though not many differences exist, some styles are indeed very different from others. This is all common knowledge, as it was written by Funakoshi himself in his OWN books. Now, Shukumine created Genseiryū, and he named it in 1953, which is one year after, he took on his first student, Mr. Tosa (of the Genseiryū Karate-do International Federation. The style WAS named Genseiryū, thus having nothing to do with your example mentioned in regard to Funakoshi etc. Thus, when Shukumine published a book in 1964, NOT naming it Genseiryū or even claiming it to be Genseiryū, then IT IS NOT Genseiryū. Claiming anything else is putting words in the mouth of the author, Shukumine. In the book he even underline that fact by specifying clearly, that he was not writing about Genseiryū, but in fact about Ko-ryu, the style of karate he learned from his teachers BEFORE he created Genseiryū. And yes, Ko-ryu means old style/school. But what Shukumine learned was a mix of different styles from that time (before he left Okinawa), namely Shuri-te etc. His last teacher died in 1945. All those styles are all referred to in the karate-world as KO-RYU. So again, you are in fact contradicting yourself. Even though Ko-ryu is not a style in itself, it is a name referring clearly to all the styles from before the naming of styles began. As you know, the name Shuri-te, Tomari-te etc. was not actually names of styles, but names of villages in Okinawa. The Shin Karate-do Kyohan is recognized as a book on karate, but not on Genseiryū by anyone at all except the WGKF. And that is only because a few people with no relations to Genseiryū whatsoever sat down at a table in Oviedo, Spain in 2003 and DECIDED to make it so. Totally contrary to the vision of Mr. Shukumine himself, Mr. Tosa, his first pupil, the Genseiryū Karate-do International Federation, who is the oldest and ONLY recognized organization in regard to Genseiryū in Japan etc. etc. I guess I am repeating myself here. The book cannot be used as a reference in the way you want to justify the existence and decisions made by the WGKF. There never existed ANY approval from Mr. Shukumine in regard to establishing WGKF. On the contrary, Shukumine wanted Genseiryū to join him in Taido. This is also common knowledge. Well, when the WGKF was created, the problems never seem to end. Now, if WGKF would change the name of the style to something else than Genseiryū, then there would be no conflict whatsoever. But that I must see before I believe it. Well, I have exhausted myself here. I am off for now. Peter Lee (talk) 23:59, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah, now THAT is the right approach of a sentence-by-sentence breakdown of the article! Hear hear!!! (Seriously, I am not even gonna read those blocks of texts anymore!) MarioR 10:40, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how rational or lack thereof it may be. Your approach of no communation is for sure the least productive one. My points are very well documented in the text, and thus you should take this task seriously. Peter Lee (talk) 15:15, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Guys, this discussion is pointless and the article will go to AFD unless ukexpat's concerns are addressed and reliable secondary sources are found to show notability. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:51, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

References and notability redux

Folks, I disagree that the notability/references issue has been adequately dealt with. How many of the current references are third party references as opposed to references that are connected with the subject itself? How much of the coverage in those sources is significant coverage? WP:RS anyone? – ukexpat (talk) 20:39, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I concur. I already stated above in the section "Regarding the References in this article", that all the references are from the WGKF, hence none of them are from any third party. Thanks for your comment. Peter Lee (talk) 23:32, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Dear Ukexpat,
The following references:

1. Taniguchi, Koichi (2005). "Genseiryū Karatedō to Taidō no sosaku wo kaerimiru" or "Looking back at the creation of Genseiryū Karatedō and Taidō"; and
2. Taido's Position in the History of Budo: From Okinawa karate to Taido (on Swedish Taido site)

are to be concidered THIRD party references. The first one is a BOOK written by Koichi Taniguchi. The second one is a website from the Swedish Taido organization. Taido is not (directly) linked to WGKF, for this is a totally different martial arts. It's not even concidered karate, although their roots are in Genseiryu.
Then, the mentioned websites:

1. 玄制流の歴史　('Genseiryū no rekishi') or "The history of Genseiryū";
2. 玄制流組織体系　('Genseiryū Soshiki Taikei') or Genseiryū Organization Structure; and
3. 玄制流空手道本部　('Genseiryū Karatedō Honbu') or Genseiryū Karatedō Headquarters

all belong to the official Japanese website of Genseiryū, as can be read (in Japanese) on the front page. The article here is about the WGKF. So, all the information about the WGKF can be found there as well. Information like who is the president (in Japanese: 主席師範) of the organization can be found there: search for 金井　保憲, which means Yasunori Kanai... If in an article about some bridge club federation, the president is mentioned, it is logical to refer to the web page of that federation, preferably to the site that shows the structure tree of the federation/organization, right? That's exactly what I did here. I can come up with lots of examples here on Wikipedia where the first reference is a link to the website of that organization/federation (e.g.: [1], [2], [3], to name just a few). Anyway, there ARE more web sites that will claim the same things as on the mentioned official website, but these are considered personal home pages. They won't be valid for referencing. The mentioned official website here also mentions ALL copyrights and you will find certificates, rules for Shibu laid down by this honbu, the Genseiryu Organization, pictures of head instructors and so on... If this site won't do, no one will. There are no books about WGKF, only the agreement.

Furthermore: if the book "Shin Karatedo Kyohan", which was written by the FOUNDER of Genseiryu himself, is not good enough as a reference about Genseiryu, then I don't know what is... If you look at the wiki about Shotokan, a karate style developed by Gichin Funakoshi, you can see several references to HIS book "Karatedo Kyohan"! Is that also considered a bad reference then?

If you are still not convinced, here is my suggestion: as I understood from 4twenty42o's reply on NeilN's Talk page, he has a closeby friend who understands Japanese. I would suggest that he has a look at the references, before anybody questions them... Besides, I did mention earlier that if I can find out more I won't hesitate to mention it here or in the article itself. This suggests that I am not sitting still. I am working on more references, but since my Japanese is not yet on a level that I can do everything myself, I also need help (luckily my wife is Japanese, only at the moment she's in Japan)... I know it is a difficult subject and the karate style of Genseiryu is so small that of the little information that one can find about it, most of it is in Japanese... That makes it extra complicated... MarioR 00:51, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, Mario Roering. I do not entirely disagree with you on some of your views, but I think you miss the point here. Nobody is contesting links provided in the article included for further reading on the federation. The sort of information posted on these external websites, is beyond the realm of Wikipedia. It is our job to write an article, which has a place in an encyclopedia, not using Wikipedia as yet another place for advertising, propaganda or personal views. Using the links as a reference to things included in the article is not valid in this regard, as they are written by pro-WGKF individuals etc. They need to be third party references such as written by people without any connection to the WGKF. As I have mentioned earlier, this is not possible, which you indirectly agree to yourself. Such third party documentation does not exist or is extremely rare. If it exist, it may only exist in Japanese anyway. I have included links above to such third party documentation written by the Japan Karate-do Federation (JKF), as the official national karate federation of Japan. But the WGKF is not recognized in Japan, and thus only references written by pro-WGKF individuals exist. THAT is also why I have said earlier, that it will not be possible to find the needed documentation to ensure the validation of facts in an article here about the WGKF. The WGKF is a very new organization, so that makes it even harder. You talk about more research, reading and translating Japanese texts with the help of your wife. Fine, please do so, but that will never produce anything else that will even come near to a third party reference. I have done exactly that sort of research in Japan using interviews and having access to even 50 years or older documents translated just to accommodate me in my research. I have not seen much third party documentation. And the one I have seen all is of newer date. Such as the ones already mentioned above. But please keep it up, maybe you get lucky. Who knows. Well, this article is about an organization. I have myself put it forward for deletion, that was done once more by another party. You have wished to keep it here. Even though I may understand your grounds for wishing that, I do not agree with you. The article have no grounds for inclusion in Wikipedia. But that is another discussion. The references used as documentation for the so-called facts included in this article are not valid, as they are not third party references. Thus the reference itself should not be included or even mentioned, and the facts, which was supposed to "stand on" that reference thus fails to have any meaning. Well, that is my honest opinion and interpretation of the basis for writing any article here at Wikipedia. You kind of contradict yourself a bit there too (no offense). The Shin Karate-do Kyohan was written by Seiken Shukumine, whom is the founder of Genseiryu. The WGKF says, that this is what they consider to be the original Genseiryū. Fine, peace to the WGKF, as everyone in this world is entitled to have an opinion. Even though the GKIF agree, that this book is written by the founder of Genseiryū and published by himself (Shukumine), we do not agree that this book is representative of Genseiryū. Neither does Shukumine himself, simply by leaving out the name Genseiryū in the book. He referred to all of the kata in the book as Ko-ryu. The book represents karate as it was taught by his masters and what he learned before he created Genseiryū and Taido. Shukumine endorsed Mr. Tosa's book in 1984, the Japan Karate-do Federation only recognizes the GKIF as representative of Genseiryū and permits only the versions of kata as described in Mr. Tosa's book and the way these kata are practiced and taught by the GKIF. I know you would say a lot about a roundabout membership of WGKF to the JKF, but this is just your opinion, which has no weight in the JKF. Only the GKIF is recognized and that must be the most important argument in regard to a third party reference. Now, we certainly have disagreed on this many times in the past, I am sure, but hope that I will be surprised, that you will not agree with me now either. But what I have just mentioned here, is what is documented by the JKF, a third party reference. The links to some of this documentation has been listed above. Last but definitely not least, I have tried to be as civil as possible in this response to you, and no offense whatsoever was intended. Thus I hope none was taken? Peter Lee (talk) 03:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

What is Going on Here

Mario Roering is violating the agreement. NO changed were to be done by either of us until we have reached a mutual understanding of what is to be put there. I cannot agree to putting that event in there. It is NOT acceptable to break the agreement this way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Lee (talk • contribs) 00:07, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Do I have to take this serious? MarioR 10:35, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I've undone the edit as it's been determined on WP:RSN that Youtube is not a reliable source in most cases and it seemed to be a primary source to begin with. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:47, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Argh. Peter Lee (talk) 15:08, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay. I understand about the YouTube video, Neil. It wasn't meant as a reference to begin with. It was meant as an extra... Now, I don't see why an EVENT needs 3rd party references anyway? It's clear as crystal this happened. There were thousands of people there! You can't change history, no matter who or how many people will deny it (in this case only ONE)! What is the next thing he will deny? That the Olympics of Beijing 2008 never took place? That the World Championship soccer will not be in South-Africa??? NASA did not land on the moon??? There WAS a big international tournament, organised by and for WGKF members. Thousands of people where present, including Genseiryu Netherlands (the WGKF part that is). So, you CAN NOT deny that! So, what is the exact reason you don't want it in the article? How about I put in at least one more reference, a 2nd party reference, that refers to this event?? Will it then be acceptable, to mention that WGKF did indeed organise the First Genseiryu World Karate Tournament? MarioR 17:07, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

First, you miss the point. We are trying to make an article about an organization to put in an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is NOT an advertisement bill board or poster wall for promoting the WGKF. Further, stop talking crap by putting words in my mouth. I have NOT insulted you, so stop insulting me. The videos of Youtube as well as events held by an organization is irrelevant in this context. And you are WRONG. The WGKF did NOT host the first ever World Genseiryu Karate-do Championship. They hosted the first ever WGKF, World Championship. You violated the agreement by editing the main article, thus breaking the trust we all put into creating this article, and that is NOT acceptable. Or do you deny that too? And last, WHAT evidence are you talking about. So far you have provided NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER. You have provided us with your opinion and ignorance, but evidence, you have provided NONE. Peter Lee (talk) 22:40, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

"...but evidence, you have provided NONE"... Keep throwing them right in Peter's face, but they keep bouncing back against that piece of wood in front of it... However, I have been waiting for more than 6 years for HIS evidences, but still waiting... The few websites he comes up with are not showing the necessary proof. I have NOT insulted Peter Lee, and I do not intent this article to be an advertisment bill board. I wouldn't know why, since WGKF is not selling anything, so I found it an unnecessary remark in the first place... I have tried the whole time to make a NPOV article, ABOUT the WGKF, not for the WGKF. Besides, what is this "WE are trying..." thing he is writing about suddenly?!? The only thing Peter Lee is trying, is to get this article removed. No other articles has he created or even worked on, besides this one, Genseiryu, IGKF and karate [4]! His only goal is removal of this article. I got THAT point clear! Peter has been asking for it so many times (also on the Dutch Wikipedia!) Now, THAT is a constructive thought... Give me a break!!! MarioR 23:12, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

You really must have had a bad upbringing, since your only skill is to insult people. I am so fed up with your crap and insults. Now, I am NOT the only one who have tried to remove this article from Wikipedia. Check your facts before you attack innocent people here. Your fantasy must be flying at the moment. NOW STOP INSULTING ME. GET A GRIP. Could some admin please stop this? I don't know what IGKF is, but if you refer to the GKIF, then please be clear in the future. You have never tried anything constructive here, on the contrary. Your last actions proof that very clearly as well. Your own homepage proofs that, the hate pages you have created using my name proofs that much too clearly. You step on other people and piss on the memory and legacy of the masters, the GKIF, Mr. Tosa, myself and anyone else who do not accept your fantasy world. I have shown you tons of evidence, even from third parties, I have included links on this page many times, in the Genseiryu® Forum, in other articles here etc. and even at Genseipedia. You keep referring to "evidence" that is in fact evidence of something else, than what you are trying to proof. Your only way to argue here, the only arguments you have, are attacks, calling me names, pointing on mistakes or the like. There is absolutely nothing constructive about that, especially not your decision on "no response". That is indeed my honest opinion. You violated the agreement, you pissed on me, just when I showed you some good will. You piss on everyone who do not agree with you. I see absolutely no genuine intentions on your part for actually being willing to make a trustworthy article about the WGKF here. You have been shown the evidence, you have heard the arguments, then please counter ague, but stop your insults and ignorance, and get your facts straight before you put forward any argument. You talk about me, as if you know me. What a laugh. Get a grip. Peter Lee (talk) 00:19, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Now, let's see how "constructive" Peter really is, since he writes "We are trying to make an article...". Peter, so you are actually admitting that the WGKF DID host the first ever WGKF World Championship??? That's what you said above... So, you DO agree that it would be okay to mention that on 9 August 2008, the first WGKF Gensei-Ryu World Karate Tournament was held in Tokyo, Japan??? MarioR 23:17, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I think I have a fever, did Mario Roering REALLY ask that insulting question? Oh yes, he did. I already answered that question once before. But I will gladly do it ONCE MORE, just for you. The tournament was held, but I do not agree that it was a "World Genseiryū Karate-do Championship" (or whatever similar to that title, you want to call it). I can ONLY agree that a WGKF Tournament was held. NOT Genseiryū, NOT World Genseiryū Championship etc. Is it clear enough this time, or do you want me to write a book about it as well? Waste of time, this fruitless argument. Peter Lee (talk) 00:26, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Precisely what I thought... Peter Lee will NEVER admit. Even when he totally contradicts himself: He first ADMITS that there was a WGKF Tournament, then he claims it was not a Genseiryu Tournament. Odd... Doesn't WGKF stand for World GENSEIRYU Karatedo Federation?????? So, then it WAS a Genseiryu tournament!!! (to understand this better, let me translate Peter's words into a more 'approachable' world: the NBA organizes a big tournament. But guess what? It is NOT a basketball tournament!!! Do you see now the NONSENSE of that statement???) Besides, if Peter would have been invited to it and asked any karateka over there what style he/she belonged to, everybody would have answered "Genseiryu". Well, now everybody can see, what Peter is like. He simply won't admit, even when he knows he's wrong and is contradicting himself! And for the rest, I won't even respond to the bs and the insults any more. His anger an jealousy are blinding his thoughts, as you can clearly see in his contradictions and severe insults. And he calls moi insulting? Tsk tsk... I was merely reaching a hand, to finally come to a mutual agreement about at least ONE thing, but this is what I get... MarioR 13:38, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

As usual you miss the point completely. Hopeless. Anyway, LIKE I HAVE SAID MANY TIMES NOW, and I shall gladly it repeat AGAIN, just for you. The WGKF held a KARATE tournament, THAT I agree. If you call it Genseiryū, then I do NOT agree, simply because the WGKF is NOT recognized as an organization belonging to Genseiryū, no matter what you would call it. THAT I have proofed with clear evidence many times earlier. This evidence is THIRD PARTY EVIDENCE. Your referral to Basketball is NOT valid if you are talking about Genseiryū, but if you would talk about KARATE in general, like you are about basket in general, then your comparison could be accepted. Just changing the name of the container, does NOT automatically change the contents. Basket is a way of playing by specific RULES with a ball. Genseiryū is a set of specific techniques, moral, legacy etc., which has nothing to do with rules. Thus, a little more integrity is needed, before one may start his own federation and call himself Genseiryū. Did you get the point this time, or did I waste my time once again? Peter Lee (talk) 18:15, 27 November 2009 (UTC) Peter Lee (talk) 20:22, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

And again, it's getting really boring now, it's Lee who is the one who misses the point completely. If there's still anybody reading all this bs above here, ask yourself the following question: here you are, you learned a martial art, then, after years of training, studying end thinking, you develop a totally new style, simply 'coz you think that it's better. You are satisfied with it and you give it some name (let's call it "Shinryu" for this case, purely fictional!), you teach this Shinryu to many, many people and then, after all the years of hard work, you die... Then, somebody else (let's call him Mr.X) changes the style of Shinryu, but continues to call it the same name as you gave it. But lots of your pupils that you have taught your Shinryu kept going on with the exact same thing as you have been doing and teaching them, they have even adopted your book as a guideline. And of course they also still call it the same name you gave it: Shinryu... Now, this Mr. X, or let it be some student of Mr. X, wants this new style to become big and hopes all the people of the original Shinryu will join him. Those who are not willing he openly says to, or even shouts to: "what you are doing, that is NOT Shinryu!!!"... Don't you think, that it's totally disrespectful and even insulting to you, as the creator of that style, to suddenly have somebody yell at your (former) students, that what they are doing is not Shinryu, your style?!? Well, I think I would turn around in my grave...

Okay, got the picture? Now, back to the article here, because in this example of Shinryu and Mr. X (and his student), that is exactly what is happening here: The people of the WGKF train Genseiryu, just as it was created by the Grand Master Seiken Shukumine, just as he passed it on to all of his students, some of them now having a high function inside WGKF. So, if ANYBODY now says that what the WGKF is doing is NOT Genseiryu, that person is simply "pissing" on the Grand Master's head. He is openly insulting the Grand Master, his family and the entire Genseiryu community! Now, if you want to be the biggest disgrace ever inside the karate world, then you should do as above...

It should be understood also, and this information is publicly accessible on the internet, that the name of "Genseiryu" (玄制流) is registered by Japanese law. All the rights (copyrights) of the name are laid down here. They are COPYRIGHTS and it's settled by LAW, so this is a 3rd party reference!!! By this law, people who change the style, have to use some suffix, if they want to use the name of Genseiryu as well. The style that Peter Lee is doing is such an example. His style, by law, has to be called "Butokukai"　(武徳会) and can not use just Genseiryu. The same thing goes for schools that train Seidokai, Keneikai, Genwakai, etc... None of these schools have made a problem out of this (not even Butokukai in Japan), some even discarded Genseiryu totally... But Peter doesn't live in Japan, so in Denmark he gets away with it, calling it "just" Genseiryu... The GKIF is actually the organization of Butokukai. So, if there is ANYBODY in this whole story who is NOT Genseiryu, then it's Peter Lee himself. He is the one he doesn't practise Genseiryu! At least not "just" Genseiryu. In Japan, he has to call it, BY LAW, Genseiryu-Butokukai. The name "Genseiryu" is solely registered to the original style, the way it was taught by Seiken Shukumine, and that is JUST what the WGKF is doing... Peter Lee's organization is the GKIF, and they train Genseiryu-Butokukai. Here is one out of many examples, an article (that can be found on the website that Peter Lee keeps referring to!): Editor's Report of November 2004, here you can see 玄制流武徳会 (Genseiryu-Butokukai) EVERYWHERE!!! Use the copy-and-paste function and you'll see that Genseiryu (玄制流) isn't ever named alone. I could mention a lot more sites, but you get the picture... So, to finally END this discussion once and for all: The World Genseiryu Karatedo Federation (WGKF) trains and teaches people Genseiryu, nothing else but Genseiryu!!!

Now, I am sure that Peter Lee will have his "last word" again, as always. He will surely insult me again, and maybe piss some more in the Grand Master's face. He will for sure claim that I am "totally" wrong, and I have again "missed the point"... He can do that, but he can NOT deny that if he goes to Japan, on any meeting or tournament of his organization, he will see the name of (Genseiryu-)Butokukai everywhere!!!! If you do look at the sites that he mentioned, you will see it. If you look at video's of tournaments/championships of his style in Japan, you will see it. Even on Peter's so-called "diploma's", you can see it... It's EVERYWHERE, undeniable: The GKIF trains 玄制流武徳会 = Genseiryu-Butokukai!... I would like to ask somebody to make Peter Lee stop insulting me here, but he won't stop anyway, and by now, nobody else, certainly no admin, wants to come on this page anymore... And I understand fully!!! Maybe I should do the same thing... --MarioR 00:40, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

You are completely wrong in every sense, same as always. It is your own rigid thinking nurtured by Nobuaki Konno as your mentor that make you continue along this path. Konno is a person who have lied about his background, his merits (if he has any) for nearly three decades now, he has deceived almost everyone in that same period of time up til the present. So it is only understandable, that you have a rigid way of thinking based on lies and deceit, as you have learned these ways from Nobuaki Konno. But even though the background may not have been chosen consciously by you, you have chosen to stay in it. Your present ways are chosen by you and you alone. Mending the past bad choices is a chance we all have, but you have chosen not to.

In law, there is absolutely no evidence of your claims in regard to Genseiryū Butokukai or anything else in your reply above concerning the law. It does not matter, if you refer to Japanese law or any other law in the world. I have never read such bullocks before. The only reason why EVERYONE write the name of their club/dojo together with Genseiryū, is the simple fact that the name is a specific referral to what organization we talk about. In Japan the Butokukai is a dojo started in 1959, by Mr. Tosa, when he was still a student of the founder of Genseiryū, Seiken Shukumine. Butokukai was and still is the oldest EVER dojo/club still in existence in Japan or elsewhere in the world. This dojo was established as part of Genseiryū way back when the founder, Shukumine, still taught Genseiryū to his students (including Mr. Tosa). It does not matter what style you belong to in the world of karate, EVERYONE writes their style first, if the style is not already a name of the club/dojo name. Even the WGKF is now using the word Genseiryū in their organization name to say (though falsely) that they are doing some sort of Genseiryū. Seidokai in Japan, is a member of the WGKF, but even THEY are using the term Genseiryū Seidokai in their name. Accordance to your own writings above, that would mean, that Seidokai is NOT doing what the WGKF considers to be the "original Genseiryū", which is the way the WGKF refers to "their" kind of Genseiryū. Well, am I right, or are you AGAIN contradicting yourself?

The facts is, that in Japan, only the Genseiryū Karate-do International Federation is recognized as an organization dealing with Genseiryū. If not the only reason for it, then at least the main reason is, that the Butokukai is the main part and backbone of the Genseiryū Karate-do International Federation. In Japan, no law has ever stated, that any other federation except the World Genseiryu Karatedo Federation is allowed to use the name Genseiryū without also stating the name of the dojo/club/organization. I have asked you to please present this evidence before, and I shall do it here again. Please provide the evidence for these claims, before you insult the masters and myself even further.

Mario Roering, you are a bitter and ignorant man, who has been filled with lies and rigid thinking from Nobuaki Konno. WHEN will you realize the facts and history as it is, and learn how to build your own views and opinions, instead of being only a servant of what we can call people of less morals and ethics? It does not matter, that the Shukumine family has registered the name Gensei-ryu in Japan. It has absolutely no affect. They could only succeed in doing so, because the people of the registration office was never presented with the entire amount of facts. If that had happened, the registration would never have taken place. It is also very common knowledge in Japan, and even in the Japan Karate-do Federation, JKF (being the official national federation of karate in Japan), that this action made by the people behind the Shukumine family is a shameful act. In Japan, the name of Genseiryū has a synonymous relation to Butokukai. It is common knowledge, that since 1959, (and even before that time) and especially after Shukumine left the world of karate in late 1961 or early 1962, the name Kunihiko Tosa IS synonymous with Genseiryū. Thus the dojo of Mr. Tosa is a well known brand, and CANNOT be taken out when referring to whom we are talking about. In Japan, the name Butokukai is BIGGER than the name of Genseiryū. It would be the same as if McDonalds suddenly stopped using their name, but suddenly only referred to their burgers as exactly that: burgers. Leaving the name Butokukai out, would take away the backbone name of Mr. Tosa.

Genseiryū is interpreted all over the world by many people and by many organizations. Some are mentioned above, being Genwakai, Seidokai, Keneikai etc. They are all doing what they consider the best style (ways) of practicing Karate. They are entitled to do exactly that, and no conflict WHATSOEVER exist between them and Butokukai. No conflict even exist between any of them and the GKIF. A few of them even have some kind of friendly relation with Mr. Tosa, Butokukai and the GKIF. One may ask why, Nobuaki Konno, don't have any such relation with Mr. Tosa, Butokukai and/or the GKIF? Well, Nobuaki Konno surely tried to establish exactly that, but Mr. Tosa never admitted any rank in Genseiryū to Konno, neither did Konno ever take any examination in Genseiryū. Nobuaki Konno only practiced very little, and he was never taught even the main basics of Genseiryū.

Nobuaki Konno was an opportunist, a seeker of power and status, but he was never a genuine pursuer of Genseiryū with respect to the old masters and their legacy. Thus he was never admitted as a member. His lying to newspapers/magazines claiming to have been awarded the rank of 6th dan by Mr. Tosa and his falsifying certificates was never forgiven and certainly did not help his chances to become a member. The background of Konno (belonging to Ryounkai) and his disloyal behavior there, did not help either. Ryounkai is practicing a style very different from that of Butokukai (Genseiryū), and Konno was in Ryounkai "only" recognized as a student of 3rd dan level black belt. Konno came to Holland with the promise to his master in Holland to help and/or assist with the expansion of Ryounkai. Mr. Takahashi, the master in Holland of Ryounkai, has written to me, that he did not understand what happened with Nobuaki Konno, as Konno one day SUDDENLY opened his own dojo, renounced Ryounkai and claimed to be part of Genseiryū. I have this in writing, and this is to be considered as a third party reference, because Mr. Takahashi of Ryounkai has nothing to do officially with the GKIF nor WGKF. In this letter, Mr. Takahashi also states that it has always been his understanding, that Mr. Tosa was the official heir/successor of Genseiryū since 1961/1962, when the founder Shukumine left the world of karate.

So, even though the family registered Gensei-ryu as a name of the family, it has no affect at all. There is no power whatsoever behind those documents. In Japanese law, as is a fact of any such law about trademarks in the world, a name can only be registered, if that name is not already "belonging" to someone else, OR have been used continuously by someone else for a lengthily period of time and thus has become synonymous with that person's name and/or organization. And that is EXACTLY what is the case here. Mr. Tosa and the Butokukai is indeed synonymous with Genseiryū. Thus if this should go to court, the Shukumine family would loose, and the WGKF would have finally realized, that their ways are wrong and cannot be accepted by a country like Japan with high morals, ethics and values who distances themselves from shame.

The founder of Genseiryū, Seiken Shukumine, did not approve all these actions, and he did not approve the establishment of the WGKF. I like to think, that Shukumine's reasons for not approving any of these actions and wishes by Nobuaki Konno (the now director general of WGKF), was that Shukumine was a man of honor, and a man of integrity. Shukumine stood by his decision, to leave the world of karate, and to spend his last years on giving what he had left to the world and organizations of Taido. This I like to believe, as I consider the legacy and the inheritance left to all of us by Shukumine is one to be appreciated and cherished forever. Shukumine's student, Mr. Tosa, has continued the name of Genseiryū, a name that would not still exist, if Mr. Tosa had not kept it alive. The legacy and the name of Tosa, is very well recognized, acknowledged and respected as the only one capeable of bringing Genseiryū to future generations. The actions of the WGKF have to this day caused so much trouble, not only bringing shame on WGKF itself, but have caused everyone else outside of the world of Genseiryū to look down upon Genseiryū as a troubled style/organization.

These ways of the WGKF (and Nobuaki Konno) continues to this day, and the support of the WGKF is not in any way expansive, but on the contrary it is decreasing in numbers. The backbone of the WGKF is not and has never been Genseiryū, it has been Nobuaki Konno. In his ways he still to this day continue his pursuit of power and status but with no contents, using the name of Genseiryū and exploiting the Shukumine family in any way that benefit himself. EXACTLY the same way he exploited the name of Genseiryū and Mr. Tosa for nearly two decades. The GKIF saw through his ways, and his shameful personality, and discarded of him at a very early state. The WGKF has build their entire existense on Nobuaki Konno's ways. This is a disgrace to Genseiryū, and the masters and their legacy.

Now, IF the WGKF could promote themselves, without pissing on the legacy and the inheritance of Genseiryū, the GKIF, Butokukai and indeed Mr. Tosa and myself, then perhaps we could live in peaceful co-existence. But ever since 1996, when Nobuaki Konno was caught in falsifying the before mentioned certificates, proven as a liar in regard to his ranks, since Jackie Moos of the Danish part of WGKF, and Jari Hiltunen of the Swedish part of WGKF, Jess Petersen of Genshikan in Denmark and their followers was caught in claiming to have miscellaneous ranks (3rd dan, 4th dan, 5th dan, 6th dan, 7th dan and even 8th dan etc.) all friendly relations was ended on a meeting held in Denmark on 11th May 1996 in the hotel room, where Mr. Tosa stayed during his stay in Denmark that year.

A few years later, Ahcene Bendjazia falsely claimed to have been given the highest rank in Genseiryū in Denmark (6th dan), and was kicked out of the GKIF. He was kicked out even AFTER, he was given nearly one month to remedy and apologize for this incident. He denied to remove his claims from his homepage. Thus Ahcene Bendjazia was kicked out in December 2000. Even to this day Jackie Moos, Ahcene Bendjazia, Jess Petersen, Jari Hiltunen and A LOT MORE, claim to have ridiculously high ranks in Genseiryū given to them by first Mr. Tosa (GKIF) and then in later years as the relations with the GKIF was abruptly ended, by Mr. Shukumine. All of these claims are lies and thus shameful, deliberately pissing on the masters and their legacy. The most funny thing, and the most obvious crazyness performed by the WGKF is, that NONE absolutely NONE of the people inside the WGKF (especially not the founders) have any background WHATSOEVER in Genseiryū. They ALL come from some other organization and/or style. Nobuaki Konno come from Ryounkai just to name one. Jari Hiltunen from Sweden come from Taido. Many named on the agreement come from Taido as well. The ranks of the people in the WGKF are also laughable. Nobuaki Konno was 3rd dan from Ryounkai, but suddenly he claim to be 6th dan in Genseiryū even though nobody have ever granted him an examination or even taught him what Genseiryū is. The exact same thing goes for everyone else in both Holland, Finland, Denmark, Spain etc. In Europe I am the only officially recognized instructor and examiner of Genseiryū, this I have as a written permission/license from the GKIF.

Mario Roering, you are fighting for a person who is not what he claims. If your life is to be wasted in that way, well, the decision in yours. But please stop insulting me, the GKIF, Butokukai, Mr. Tosa etc. simply because you want to fight for WGKF. If the WGKF has a wish to build on any righteous grounds, then please do that, but if the WGKF's only aim in this world is to continue on a shameful path attacking GKIF, me, Mr. Tosa etc. then we will fight you forever. We do not care about the WGKF, it is just one more of Nobuaki Konno's ways of promoting himself, but we do care about insults, disgraceful behavior, pissing on the name and legacy of the masters and Genseiryū. We will not stand idly by and see you destroy Genseiryū. We don't care about the WGKF and a small angry ignorant servant of Nobuaki Konno like yourself, simply because we have our background intact, we have the strongest, the biggest and the most respected organization in the world. Not because we claim to be, but because we work hard to improve ourselves as human beings every day, because we respect the organizations and styles of others, because we try to expand our organization on integrity and respect for Mr. Shukumine as the founder and Mr. Tosa as the successor, because we welcome everyone who has a genuine character based on those same values. We do not step on others, shame ourselves, belittle others or lie. Those are the ways of the WGKF, and that is why nobody respect the WGKF in Japan. So any and all hardships you may encounter is what you have brought upon yourselves. You started out on insults and lies, Nobuaki Konno was caught, but instead of mending his ways, he continued in that exact way. Now the WGKF exist, and he continues his ways even stronger. You should try to mend your ways, and question the ways of the WGKF and Nobuaki Konno. Well, I guess you will not do that, because that would in the end mean, that you would have to appologize to me. And I know, that you have not enough integrity to ever do that. But one can continue to hope. Peter Lee (talk) 19:19, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

The only one who needs to apologize is Peter Lee himself, not only to me (for slandering my name, his constant insults, for claiming that I am TenChiJin, for "sock-puppetry", etc.), but also to Wikipedia (for keeping the edit wars alive) to Mr. Konno and the entire karate community, for his disgraceful false accusations. The "false" diplomas he keeps referring to, they first have to be proven to be false. I know exactly what they are, but I don't have to proof anything. If anybody calls them "false", then it's that person who has to proof it and so far, there has not been any proof and there never will be, simply because they are NOT false! If Peter says they are false, then when is he gonna press charges??? That's what I would have done! But so far, no letter from any court or lawyer... So, conclusion: he is just shouting something. FALSE accusations!!!

Mario Roering, welcome back. Did the TenChiJin account start to burn, so it needed a little break back to the Mario Roering account? I am not falsely accusing anyone. Especially not you or Nobuaki Konno. You have done so many things wrong in your life, that it is kind of impossible to falsely accuse you. Have your pick, and I am sure you did it. Take down your crap homepage, put a big apology in writing on it instead, and MAYBE we can meet half way for some talks. But if you continue on the way you have chosen for yourself, it will definitely not change anything for the better, on the contrary. You will never be able to change the fact, that as long as you use defamation, lies and slander without having even just one fact straight, then I will keep challenging you in any and all ways. The evidence in regard to the false certificates have been made clear on more than one occasion. The evidence is available at Genseipedia in more than one language. The certificates themselves have been included for evidence. That particular accusation is a well documented one. Konno is a lier and a deceitful person promoting himself as something he is not. The evidence is there, so no further discussion is necessary. Nobuaki Konno's actions are the direct reason why all relations to the GKIF and Kunihiko Tosa ended so abruptly on 6th May 1996. But you already know all this, so why are you still on your crusade about it? Peter Lee (talk) 20:12, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, I don't know why you come up with the name Ahcene Bendjazia. I don't know much about him. If you want to start slandering HIS name, by your means, while you're at it, just throw in a few more names... Why not also sensei Kanai? Oh, and Mr. Fujimaru from Taido? He also signed the agreement of WGKF! Why not also start to slander his name??? Come on, you are soooooooo good at it!! Just start slander the name of anybody who doesn't do what you do, doesn't think what you think... It's your biggest hobby now, so just expand it! Everybody's gotta have a hobby! Have fun!!! --MarioR 11:50, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Ahcene Bendjazia, well, don't get me started there. Let me just say, that he has played his part in the problems here. Claiming to have a 6th dan, denying to remove the claim, and then he was kicked out of the GKIF in December 2001. His actions were similar to those of Nobuaki Konno, both promoting themselves as something they are not. Isn't that also what you are doing, together with Jackie Moos, Jan Christoffersen, Jimmy Jørgensen, Jess Petersen, Steen Petersen, Jan Madsen, Claus Hansen, Fereidun Dariagaard, David Roovers etc. etc. etc.? Well, most people who works with Nobuaki Konno in fact. And about Ahcene Bendjazia, as a last note, Ahcene Bendjazia was the one presenting the evidence to Kunihiko Tosa on May 6th 1996. The evidence was clearly showing, without a shred of doubt, that Nobuaki Konno was making false and fake certificates using Kunihiko Tosa's name, Seiken Shukumine's name etc. on certificates that was never approved by Genseiryū, handed out and sold to students/instructors in Denmark, Finland, Holland, Sweden etc. showing that they were all awarded a rank in Genseiryū, even though Nobuaki Konno was never authorized to hold such examinations, nor to make, sell and/or hand out these certificates. It is old news, why are you having such a hard time accepting these facts? Oh yes, perhaps because this is the past of Nobuaki Konno, making you have to apologize to me for slandering and defamation. You have been and you still are the culprit in promotion and fighting for these people, who have in fact build their entire karate career on lies and deceit. You are entitled to have your own believes, but you should not fight everyone else who do not agree with your ignorant and/or rigid perception of the situation and world around you. Peter Lee (talk) 20:12, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow, lots of people are now being accused here! Is there ever gonna be an end to your name slandering? Are you gonna accuse the whole karate world now of forgery, deceit, etc.... I don't think it's really cool or civil! Anyway, it's, to say the least, very very very strange that somebody who has forged documents of a certain Japanese karate grand master, that this person is still today welcome inside that family. Many of the names you mentioned have even been invited to Shukumine's funeral in 2001. Were you invited??? Where were you on the celebration of 55 years of Genseiryū??? I was there, but I didn't see you there! Maybe it's not hard evidence, but if I would be the son of a grand master, and I would find out that one of his students had forged documents in the name of my father, I would surely NOT invite that person to the funeral or to any gathering at all!!! Since this did not happen and most of the names mentioned (let's say "slandered") by you are very welcome on these gatherings. Let's see at the next gathering how welcome YOU are there... Okay? MarioR 18:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Notability Part III

Nonwithstanding the heat and light above, I still don't see references to third party sources to establish notability. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 01:06, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest, that this page be cleaned up, exept the LATEST discussion and replies. Peter Lee (talk) 19:19, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion

May I suggest that all those closely involved in editing this article take a break for a few days? It is in danger of becoming an unpleasant edit war. Maybe after a few days off, folks can begin to work a little more collaboratively. There is no deadline so the article will be here when you get back, and I promise not to send it to Afd for at least a week. Sound like a plan? – ukexpat (talk) 15:58, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I do not disagree with your suggestion, but I do not see what the break is supposed to accomplish. We had a break since 2005/2006 until 2009, and that did not change anything. Not that I am not willing to try whatever suggestion you may come up with, but I believe a more specific aim and procedure for reaching that aim is necessary. Peter Lee (talk) 20:16, 6 December 2009 (UTC)