Talk:World Victory Road Presents: Sengoku 7

Name

This was originally named Sengoku 8 but was moved here. See Talk:World Victory Road Presents: Sengoku 8. --aktsu ^(t / c) 00:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

grand prix bracket

Will a tournament bracket be created for the Feather Weight Grand Prix?? 207.246.181.26 (talk) 04:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Flags

During the broadcast, WVR displayed flags for all the tournament fighters. My interpretation is that those represent their "sporting nationality" i.e. what they fought under, and to display them is as such in compliance with MOS:FLAG - which says flags are never to be used for personal nationality only for "sporting". I've added a notice explaining the use. Also, if someone has chosen to represent a country, I can't see it being appropriate for use to decide among ourselves that that "doesn't count" and use a flag for something they in theory might not relate to.

Also, when it comes to Nam Phan, he explicitly self-identifies as South Vietnamese and that is as such his personal nationality (note that citizenship is not nationality) so even if it was "allowed" to use personal nationality for the flags it should still be the South Vietnamese flag. Because someone is bound to make the argument to use the flags for birthplace (Pham was born in the US), that won't work as it would mean silly things like a Cyprian flag next to Michael Bisping and an Ukrainian flag next to Fedor Emelianenko. --aktsu ^(t / c) 04:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Stop changing his flag icon to a country that doesn't exist please —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.74.178.214 (talk) 21:52, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Quite clearly South Vietnam does exists. If that is the country he chose to represent during this event, then that is the flag that should be associated with his name. --TreyGeek (talk) 21:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I didn't know this was an international event —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.74.178.214 (talk) 22:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

General consensus with the MMA Wikiproject is that all fighters will represent a country. As such, the flag next to a fighter's name is the flag representing the country the fighter represents for that fight, regardless of birth or citizenship. The issue of whether events are "international" or not has been one heatly debated. That debate, if you wish to join in, can be found at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts. --TreyGeek (talk) 22:08, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Here's a few images from the broadcast showing him sporting the South Vietnamese flag. --aktsu ^(t / c) 23:06, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

What about the American flag?--71.74.178.214 (talk) 02:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The one on his right shoulder? What about it? He's born in the US, but have chosen to represent South Vietnam in MMA. He also has a Brazilian one on his left which I guess is because he have trained there or something... --aktsu ^(t / c) 03:03, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

So then the South Vietnam flag means nothing--71.74.178.214 (talk) 04:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

... huh? Besides having it on his gi, he's told WVR to display it during the broadcast, he's brought it with him to the ring and has during multiple interviews told how he considers himself South Vietnamese. Anyway, that's all besides the point because during this event (which is all that matters) he clearly fought under a South Vietnamese flag and it should thus be displayed for him. --aktsu ^(t / c) 04:34, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

It very much seems to be that the anon IP is being hard-headed. It is clear that Pham desired to fight representing South Vietnam for this event. Therefore, according to the consensus of the MMA WikiProject in terms of flag usage, a South Vietnamese flags should be next to his name for this event. --TreyGeek (talk) 04:40, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I, along with many others, don't agreed with the South Vietnam flag, every other fight card on wikipedia displays the flag where the fighter was born however- this page is special?? i don't understand. Tito ortiz often considered himself mexican american and carries a mexican flag with him to cage, so is this flag necessary = ??? The answer is no. This wvr card should not be any different from any other cards displayed on wikipedia and have a rediculas discription at the top, i believe that Chris Manuel along with nam pham should have the usa flag displayed next to them. 207.246.181.26 (talk) 15:25, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

• Who are these many others you speak of and why aren't they speaking for themselves? By your reasoning Michael Bisping should have the Cyprus flag next to his name in all record boxes. Does that make sense? No. The flag used next to the fighter's name should be for the country the fighter represents. In many cases it is the same as where they were born. --TreyGeek (talk) 15:40, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
• Also as an aside... I think the flags used are generally what the promotion has used for the fighter. WVR used the South Vietnamese flag, so why shouldn't we? --TreyGeek (talk) 15:45, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) As explained above, using the birthplace-flags wouldn't work (Bisping born in Cyprus, Fedor in Ukraine etc). The fact of the matter is that there isn't any well-defined project-wide consensus with regards to the flags, and in my opinion they should be removed altogether to avoid discussions/problemes like this. The best solution when removing them isn't an option (people would just re-add them as long as we're missing a solid consensus) is what I've adopted here with using the flags of counties the fighters have chosen to represent. The thing is, this only really works for non-US promotions which actually use the flags in any capacity and thus provide a reliable source for which flags to display. There is also the issue of MOS:FLAG which stats to only flags representing sporting nationality (country represented), which doesn't exist in the state-sanctioned fights in the US - but that you could argue exist when the Japanese governing bodies (FEG and WVR) themselves choose to display the flags. So, with regards to Tito; there is no answer to which flag to use for him - or for any other fighters fighting in US-promotions. In the US they do not fight for any countries (which you can argue they do in e.g. the Japanese promotion), so there is no sporting nationality - so per MOS:FLAG the flags are not allowed. Why are they then used? Because people like them to much. There is a constant edit war over what flag should be used for certain fighters, and there is really nothing we can do about it; both of the flags are "right" in that the people in question have multiple nationalities. Basically the UFC-events-articles shouldn't use flags, but forcefully removing them wouldn't work so they stay. Here, we can actually back up the use of the flags and source them to what was used on the broadcast - solving the problems of what flags to use and also being in compliance with MOS:FLAG since the flags doesn't represent personal nationality (though in many cases they are the same).

If you have a solution that solves the above problems I'm all ears, but as it stands I think this is the only thing that really makes sense all things considered. If you're really interested there's a long discussion about it over at WT:MMA. --aktsu ^(t / c) 15:57, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Michael Bisping was born on British military base, which is considered British soil, so try again. 207.246.181.26 (talk) 18:21, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

So, you're basically asking why we can't use place of birth? Should be pretty obvious since lots of people are born abroad and the fact that if someone self-identifies as having another nationality you're not one to say otherwise. For this exact reason, flags are not allowed to represent birth- and death-country in infoboxes per MOS:FLAG. --aktsu ^(t / c) 18:45, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

HA!! this 207 dude is 100% correct, both Chris Manuel along with Nam Pham should have the usa flag next to their names. They are from the USA and have american nationality. And the Japanese broadcaster are dumb anyways, they don't know the reason they put up the flags. If both fighters were to fight in the UFC i guarantee that durring the broadcast the usa flag would have been used. 143.43.210.33 (talk) 18:30, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Have you paid any attention to the above? He has the flag on his gi, have taken it with him to the ring and has expressed how he considers himself South Vietnamese in multiple interviews... --aktsu ^(t / c) 18:45, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

And what the hell does this mean? "seems to be that the anon IP is being hard-headed", just because i don't have a fansy name and user page doesn't mean shit. it just means that i don't have time to create a wikipedia thing because i have a life. The usa flag is correct.

Nam Phan seems to disagree. --aktsu ^(t / c) 18:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and just for reference - here's a reliable source calling him South Vietnamese as well: [1]. --aktsu ^(t / c) 18:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

MOS:FLAGS states that "In general, if a flag is felt to be necessary, it should be that of the sovereign state." South Vietnam does not currently exist as a state, let alone a sovereign one. The Vietnamese is one nation that was politically divided once in their history...but unlike Korea, this is no longer the case. "South Vietnam" exists as a separate culture however, there are significant differences between the North and South, but that alone does not mean a separate nationality. As such, I'm not convinced the flag of S.Vietnam represents an actual nationality, rather to me it represents a culture and political position. Frankly, using the S.Vietnam flag in any non-historical context is potentially explosive politically. As for the authority of WVR's graphics, unlike PRIDE and DREAM, they are not self-sanctioning, they are governed by the Japan Mixed Martial Arts Federation, so we can't call WVR a governing body. MOS:FLAGS prefers nationality be established by the sport's governing body. Then again, JMM is mostly a figurehead organization... hateless 20:08, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

The JMMAF-thing is very true... Do you know if they have a website that could possibly be enlightening to take a look at? It's also worth mentioning that it was only the GP-fighters that had any flags displayed, unlike in Dream/K-1 where everyone had one... --aktsu ^(t / c) 20:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Supposedly it's http://www.kakutougi-kyoukai.com/, which is not helpful at all since it only consists of an ad for Sengoku and pictures from their announcement press conference back in 2007. hateless 21:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Nam Pham is an american citizen and was born in Westminster, California, just because he takes pride in his ancestors culture does not make him from "south vietnam". 207.246.181.26 (talk) 21:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Have you read MOS:FLAG#Use_of_flags_for_sportspeople? If not, here's a brief quote:

Flags should never indicate the player's nationality in a non-sporting sense; 
flags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or sporting nationality.

Yes, he is American by citizenship/nationality. However, the promotion, and other sources, suggest that his "sporting nationality" (I believe to mean the nation he represents while competing) is South Vietnamese. The manual of style suggests using a flag that indicates his sporting nationality. --TreyGeek (talk) 22:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

If you truely believe that the south vietnam flag is correct then change the dozens of links on wikipedia that show his name and the usa flag. 207.246.181.26 (talk) 23:45, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily, because it's not a given he represented South Vietnam during those events. Such a claim is not directly sourceable such as in this case anyway. --aktsu ^(t / c) 04:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses facts not this mos flag nonsense--N2492004 (talk) 11:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)