Talk:Yissachar Dov Rokeach (third Belzer rebbe)

Page rename

Today Epicgenius moved this page from Yissachar Dov Rokeach (I) to Yissachar Dov Rokeach I, and Yissachar Dov Rokeach (II) to Yissachar Dov Rokeach II. He explained on his talk page that the "I" can be confused with a lowercase "L" or even a pipe "|".

I explained to him that there is no such thing as "the first," the "second," "senior" or "junior" in Judaism, which is what the Roman numeral after the name implies. The parenthetical Roman numeral was only placed on Hasidic dynasty pages to differentiate the Rebbes who have the same name, such as Shlomo Halberstam (I) and Shlomo Halberstam (II), Shmuel Bornsztain (I) and Shmuel Bornsztain (II), and Aharon of Karlin (I) and Aharon of Karlin (II). The Roman numeral should not be looked at as part of their name at all.

Another option may be to expand the title, e.g.: Yissachar Dov Rokeach, third Belzer rebbe, Yissachar Dov Rokeach, fifth Belzer rebbe, Shmuel Bornsztain, second Sochatchover Rebbe, Shmuel Bornsztain, fifth Sochatchover Rebbe.

Comments? Yoninah (talk) 18:40, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the brackets are better, for the reason stated. Other disambiguation could also be used, but under no circumstances should the "I" or "I"" be left without brackets. Debresser (talk) 21:27, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

• Agree with Users Yoninah (talk · contribs) and Debresser (talk · contribs) above -- that the brackets "( )" were just fine -- and a quick Revert is called for in all cases where such changes were made. It is highly surprising that an editor who, based on his record, does not seem familiar with this subject, should undertake such changes without seeking some prior input from more experienced editors at WP:TALKJUDAISM that would seem a pretty basic requirement as per WP:CONSENSUS. IZAK (talk) 11:09, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
• Cmt I prefer (born 1849). Chesdovi (talk) 12:34, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
• Agree with Yoninah's proposal, as there is no precedent for numerics in rabbinical dynasties. I will readily support the alternative option. With regards to the year of birth, this seems unnecessary. JFW | T@lk 15:02, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
• The option to fully expand the title as Yoninah suggested is the clearest to the non-expert. Just using (I) is a convention that will not be easily understood. It only makes sense to do it that way in a general encyclopedia when the different people of the same name are discussed together or in series. DGG ( talk ) 15:12, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
• Aharon of Karlin, second Karliner rebbe looks terrible, much prefer Aharon of Karlin (born 1789). Chesdovi (talk) 17:08, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
• Comment – I am the one who expanded it, so I agree with Yoninah (talk · contribs)'s new idea, as mine was just temporary (neither '(II)' nor 'II' is very clear; see WP:D because the brackets (I) and (II) are very confusing. For all we know, the articles don't refer to rebbes at all, so that's also why I agree with Yoninah's idea). Also, I just moved the page in accordance with Yoninah's proposal. Epicgenius^{(give him tirade • check out damage)} 01:18, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

• I'm afraid your solution is also a temporary one, Epicgenius. For the non-educated reader, the questions arise: First rebbe of what? What's a rebbe? Above, the other editors are trying to reach a consensus which will impact several other Hasidic dynasty pages. There's no need to rush to a solution until we all agree on something.
• Right now, the two options suggested are:
  1. Name + title (e.g. Yissachar Dov Rokeach (first Belzer rebbe)
  2. Name + birthdate (e.g. Yissachar Dov Rokeach (born 1851)
• Yoninah (talk) 10:32, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I am in favor of the first. Having a year is awkward, and I haven't yet seen that being done on Wikipedia for people. Debresser (talk) 15:18, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I like the first as well, as it complies with WP:D. Epicgenius^{(give him tirade • check out damage)} 15:19, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Fine with me. I'll go ahead and do other page renames, as mentioned above. Yoninah (talk) 19:04, 7 November 2013 (UTC)