Talk:Third Rebellion in Shouchun

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved, no consensus to move -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:33, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

---

• Zhuge Dan Rebellion → Zhuge Dan's Rebellion
• Wang Ling Rebellion → Wang Ling's Rebellion
• Guanqiu Jian and Wen Qin Rebellion → Guanqiu Jian and Wen Qin's Rebellion

– I'm having a dispute with my fellow creator of these articles whether the names' should have a capital "R", a lower-case "r" or each should be "Zhuge Dan Rebellion", etc. Am I not correct that the correct title would be "Zhuge Dan's Rebellion", etc? --Relisted UtherSRG (talk) 13:53, 31 March 2012 (UTC) Eric 00:43, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose attributive usage of the personal name versus possessive usage of the person's name. I prefer not to use the possessive form, instead using the attributive form. 70.24.248.7 (talk) 04:19, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose, per the above rationale. Lonelydarksky (暗無天日) _{contact me (聯絡)} 12:59, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support, Numerous documents state it as translated to Zhuge Dan Rebellion. However, in English, the title could be strongly suggesting that 'Zhuge Dan' is a type of rebellion and suggests something like: "I have ignited a rebellion." "I have ignited a Zhuge Dan Rebellion." So using no 's is dramatically incorrect and/or misleading. Now if we said "Zhuge Dan's rebellion", that is also misleading and/or incorrect. 1) It's suggesting that the rebellion isn't a proper noun, which the rebellion is a proper noun. 2) In a title, every word but "in", "a", "the", and "of" is capitalized unless one of those words is the beginning of the title. Now if we said "Zhuge Dan's Rebellion", the misleading no apostrophe "s" is included and fixed. Now we have a thing, "Zhuge Dan's rebellion". Now that we have a thing, is it a proper noun? Yes, it is a proper noun! But we didn't write it out as a proper noun, let us fix that! :P It's not just any type of rebellion, it's "Zhuge Dan's Rebellion". So the "R" is capitalized. I do understand the possessive usage, but that rule is negated by a proper noun. What if I said "battle of Changban". You all know that it's not correct. Even though the title of that battle doesn't have an apostrophe "s", the "Battle of Changban" is indeed stating possessive usage, even if it looks weird. The same thing applies for "Zhuge Dan's Rebellion". Eric 15:05, 23 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamek98 (talk • contribs)

You're going to have to back up your statement that "numerous documents" translate it as Zhuge Dan Rebellion. On Wikipedia we go with the most common usage, so if Zhuge Dan Rebelliion is indeed the prevalent usage then no emotive arguements based on an incomplete understanding of English to the contrary will matter. _dk (talk) 17:17, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I need no back up. No Chinese text will be translated with an "'s" because the Chinese don't use that. Records of Three Kingdoms translated into English goes to "Zhuge Dan Rebellion". Complete translation with corrections would be "Zhuge Dan's Rebellion". I really don't see why I'm wrong? Also, Dynasty Warriors 7 translated it with perfect translation into Zhuge Dan's Rebellion. This game actually was translated by professionals. Eric 19:41, 23 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamek98 (talk • contribs)

And anyway, the title forces the "R" to be capitalized. --Eric 19:47, 23 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamek98 (talk • contribs)

You're not going to convince any of us using that tone. Wikipedia is based on sources, so your "I need no backup" does not fly. There is not a single standard English translation of the Records of the Three Kingdoms that's considered academically suitable, and Dynasty Warriors 7 is miles away from what's acceptable as a source for Wikipedia. If you're going to base your arguement on a video game, I suggest you find actual books to read on this topic before attempting to throw out book names in hope that no one has read those books. It'll help you in the end. _dk (talk) 20:27, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I know. I didn't think DW7 was gonna get me anywhere, but I just used it as an example. Anyways, why does this have to be an argument? "Zhuge Dan Rebellion" doesn't sound right. "Zhuge Dan's rebellion" is defying the capitalization rule for titles. "Zhuge Dan's Rebellion" is proper. When I said "I need no backup" I meant that I can't get any back up for translation of Chinese to English that will also include "'s" because Chinese uses characters and not letters so of course the translation will become

"Zhuge Dan Rebellion". Now, if it was edited with correction it would become "Zhuge Dan's Rebellion". And Records of Three Kingdoms had abstracts used in the notes for Moss Roberts' Three Kingdoms in Vol. 4, mentioning "Zhuge Dan's Rebellion". It was also translated in both the notes and story using the title "Zhuge Dan's Rebellion". Three Kingdoms is the English Translation of Romance of the Three Kingdoms written by Luo Guanzhong. I find it an insult that you would start to accuse me of not having sources in a discussion. I'm trying to hold a professional matter in this debate, fellow. -- Eric 01:18, 25 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamek98 (talk • contribs)

Let's take DW7 and games out of the discussion since there's an implicit agreement between both sides that they are irrelevant here. Well, at least now you state that you're using Roberts' translation of Romance of the Three Kingdoms as a source. Previously you didn't, you just said "numerous documents". However a single source isn't sufficient to convince us. Anyway the main topic for debate in this discussion is about whether the attributive or possessive usage of people's names should be used. Paragraph 7.25 of The Chicago Manual of Style (16th edition) mentioned that "Chicago dispenses with the apostrophe only in proper names (often corporate names) that do not use one or where there is clearly no possessive meaning". Even though Zhuge Dan started the rebellion, we cannot say that the rebellion was his. How can a person own a rebellion as though it was something like his personal property (house, car etc)? Lonelydarksky (暗無天日) _{contact me (聯絡)} 04:16, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok, nice to get this debate to a flow. I just didn't know if the note source was good enough. Anyways, ir is "'s" because he actually does own it, but not like a personal personal property. Zhuge Dan started the rebellion. Zhuge Dan commanded the rebellion, it is "Zhuge Dan's Rebellion". Same for Guanqiu Jian and Wen Qin Rebellion; it is referring to each man(s) rebellion separate. So the only way the clarify it correctly is to use "'s". --Eric 15:57, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Zhuge Dan can own a rebellion. A noun is always capable of possession. A noun is a person, place, thing, or idea. The Rebellion is an idea. Zhuge Dan owns the idea of his rebellion. --Eric 00:12, 28 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamek98 (talk • contribs)

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AoZ8mEH3j776D0L1w8NCedbty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20120325084922AAQec2L -I will gather some more sources. But this says that "'s" doesn't imply anything in Zhuge Dan's Rebellion but it DOES apply. If we said "Zhuge Dan Rebellion", that uses Zhuge Dan as an adjective and Zhuge Dan is a noun, so the title right now is implying this rebellion is an adverb. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamek98 (talk • contribs) 18:14, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

More examples of this:

• Kett's Rebellion
• Bacon's Rebellion
• Tyrone's Rebellion
• Karposh's Rebellion
• Pontiac's Rebellion

--72.230.208.18 (talk) 19:30, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. 70.24.244.198 (talk) 03:42, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

A noun can always be under possession of a person's name. A rebellion in this case, is an idea. A noun is a person, place, thing, or idea. --Eric - Contact me please. I prefer conversations started on my talk page if the subject is changed 20:33, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Discussion was archived to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 24 -- 65.92.183.144 (talk) 03:38, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Maybe a compromise can be Rebellion of Zhuge Dan, etc. Much like we have an article named Rebellion of Cao Qin _dk (talk) 17:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking a compromise can be what a previous title was. Named by Lonelydarksky:

• Wang Ling's rebellion
• Guanqiu Jian and Wen Qin's rebellion
• Zhuge Dan's rebellion.

Since the usage of "'s r" is quite frequent. But the fact it's a title would just support the move since every word in a title is capitalized except a, the, of, & and. A second compromise could be Incident of Blah Blah Blah because it is also quite frequent. A third compromise could be a section under each rebellion stating what the rebellions are also known as. --Eric - Contact me please. I prefer conversations started on my talk page if the subject is changed 18:41, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Disagree. Either Zhuge Dan's rebellion or Zhuge Dan Rebellion. Lonelydarksky (暗無天日) _{contact me (聯絡)} 09:47, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Suggested Requested Move

• Zhuge Dan Rebellion → Zhuge Dan's rebellion
• Wang Ling Rebellion → Wang Ling's rebellion
• Guanqiu Jian and Wen Qin Rebellion → Guanqiu Jian and Wen Qin's rebellion

– How about this? --Eric - Contact me please. I prefer conversations started on my talk page if the subject is changed 16:07, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment you forgot to place the WP:RM banner. And in any case, this would be considered gaming the system, since it's been less than a month since the closure of the last request, and this request is almost identical. It might even be considered disruptive. 70.49.124.225 (talk) 04:44, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 23 January 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Number 57 13:28, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

---

• Third Rebellion in Shouchun → Zhuge Dan's Rebellion
• Second Rebellion in Shouchun → Guanqiu Jian and Wen Qin's Rebellion
• First Rebellion in Shouchun → Wang Ling's Rebellion

– Explanation below. Eric - Contact me please. I prefer conversations started on my talk page if the subject is changed 00:22, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

A few years back when the first RM was made (and when I was young and reckless, although I still am––just less now) an IP said that using Zhuge Dan Rebellion, for example, is what is preferred over possessive. Although that understandable to fluent English speakers such as myself it is a faux pas in the English language. The actual preference is definitely possessive over noun adjunct. In fact, I only use attributive (I speak English as my first language and I take AP just sayin' haha) when saying things like soda can, garage sale, etc.

This still bares the question about the lower case or capital r/R. In my own opinion, not only is using a lower case r in a proper noun (because it is a historical event, such as Battle of the Bulge instead of Battle of the bulge) awkward–– but I also find it unreasonable because the most popular/frequent usage is capital. (Doesn't appear in nGrams, but it is commonly known as Wang Ling's Rebellion, etc. in the Dynasty Warriors video games, which again, are the strongest influence for the term of the rebellions) Although it shouldn't matter much because the term is collectively a proper noun. Eric - Contact me please. I prefer conversations started on my talk page if the subject is changed 00:22, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

@Underbar dk:, @Lds:, @Skookum1:, @Randy Kryn:, @Dicklyon:, @SmokeyJoe:, @Blueboar:, @Red Slash:, @Amakuru:, @Ltpowers: I have tagged a few users I feel can contribute to the discussion. Eric - Contact me please. I prefer conversations started on my talk page if the subject is changed 00:22, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

• Nomination and Support Per explanation. Eric - Contact me please. I prefer conversations started on my talk page if the subject is changed 00:24, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Much clearer, and closer to how the events are labelled in Chinese historical literature. Snuge purveyor (talk) 23:01, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.