Template talk:Antisemitism sidebar

Zionist POV

@User:Vitamortisachla "anti-Zionist antisemitism is far more prevalent" is your opinion, which I disagree with. Removing the link to the article seems to be a case of "I just don't like it". You are free to create an article on Anti-Zionist antisemitism if you so please. The solution here is to add more information to Wikipedia, not to censor it by removing things we don't like. I'd be happy to help you locate sources for your new article if you choose to create it. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 00:17, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

@User:Vitamortisachla Furthermore, your assertion that the sidebar insufficiently includes mention of anti-Zionist antisemitism is belied by the presence of the article on New antisemitism, which describes the notion that anti-Zionism is merely a disguise for antisemitism. Your claim is further belied by the presence of Three Ds of antisemitism, Working Definition of Antisemitism, Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party, Andinia Plan, Doctors' plot, Zionist Occupation Government conspiracy theory, and other articles that mention actual or alleged examples of anti-Zionist antisemitism. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 09:09, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria

Let's try to gather consensus around the inclusion criteria for the "Prominent figures" list.

I propose we include prominent national leaders, and prominent leaders of antisemitic groups.

I doubt people that don't belong to either group can be considered prominent, and the sidebar section currently seems bloated, which "dilutes" it. DFlhb (talk) 04:54, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but some of the leaders that are currently on the list, like Mahmoud Abbas, maybe shouldn't be on there. Labeling people as anti-Semitic is potentially libelous. ____318____ 21:16, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

The names included should be names that would significantly feature in a history of antisemitism. Mahmoud Abbas does not fit that criterion. Including so many minor current US far right activists, such as Steven Anderson (pastor), Andrew Anglin, Mike Enoch, Nick Fuentes, Jason Kessler, David Lane, Kevin Alfred Strom, Weev, Bill White (neo-Nazi), Rick Wiles,

lead to recentism and US-centrism. Several Romanians are here who are clearly important to the history of antisemitism in that country, but not globally, and should be trimmed: Gheorghe Buzatu, Nichifor Crainic, A. C. Cuza, Octavian Goga, Horia Sima. As per Firefangledfeathers below, Tila Tequila should also be removed. As nobody has disagreed to the proposals elsewhere on this page for removing these names, I will now do so. What about Bobby Fischer?

On the other hand, some historical figures who we might consider adding: Arnold von Uissigheim, Simon de Montfort, Edward I of England, Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile, Peter Stuyvesant, Bohdan Khmelnytsky, Joseph Arthur de Gobineau, Louis de Bonald, Charles Maurras, Édouard Drumont, Maurice Barrès, Alfred Rosenberg, Wilhelm Marr, Reinhard Heydrich, Charles Lindbergh. And maybe Adolf Stoecker? And Joseph Stalin? I'll add the most important ones now, in case anyone objects to the less important ones here. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:34, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Mahmoud Abbas does feature very much as a recent example of antisemitism. In 1982 he completed a PhD in holocaust denial and has since repeatedly challenged Israel's right to exist while constantly justifying his own existence and that of his culture. Historicallibrarian (talk) 22:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Dreyfus Affair in tropes

Can an editor please give the justification/explanation of why the dreyfus affair is in the tropes section and not the persecution section? ModernMephisto (talk) 20:46, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I see your point, but the persecution article doesn't mention Dreyfus, while the tropes article does. This may be better brought up in the talk page for the Persecution article, or just boldly added wherever it fits in there. DFlhb (talk) 20:53, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Kanye West?

Should we add Kanye West to the list of notable anti-semites? His negative views on jewish people and society is very well known and I believe he should be added to the sidebar. DiSantis19 (talk) 17:05, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't think so. There are many very notable people who turn out to be antisemitic, of which West is the most recent major example. I generally don't think we should include such people, restricting the list to people for whom antisemitism is a major part of their notability, or whose views are influential on other antisemites. For these reasons, I'd also suggest we remove Tila Tequila. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:39, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2023

Change Prominent Figures to include Yasser Arafat, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Vladimir Lenin, and Varg Vikernes, Henry Rothstein (talk) 19:25, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 11:43, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

George Soros conspiracy theories

Please add George Soros conspiracy theories to the "Manifestations" section of this template. - 87.58.32.220 (talk) 23:07, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable, although it might be better in the Antisemitic tropes section, and the sidebar's already rather long. Antisemitism is mentioned in the article lead. It's also supported by reliable sources such as The Washington Post, The Guardian, and The Atlantic. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 05:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 16:08, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2024

Please include the October 7th attack as a manifestation of antisemitism. Harbu Darbu (talk) 15:34, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Sincerely, Guessitsavis (she/they) (Talk) 20:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Prominent figures

Not sure why this would be in the template. a) editors would be better off creating a page of a list of antisemites (you'd have to work out the right criteria etc) and just add 1 link to that page in the template, b) the criteria to add here is unclear, c) even if you had certain significant people, these can be folded under geography or incident. Personally, I'd just remove the whole thing. I.am.a.qwerty (talk) 12:17, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2024

Add Reinhard Heydrich. Guido von List and Miguel Serrano to the list of representatives. HeheRechot (talk) 15:25, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Correction. Add them to the "Prominent figures" list. HeheRechot (talk) 15:27, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. There's already discussion on the talk page as to whether this section should even form part of the sidebar; consensus needed before making larger. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 01:12, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

People section (Nov 2024)

• Baked Alaska
• Andrew Anglin
• Ion Antonescu
• Stepan Bandera
• Louis Beam
• Dan Bilzerian
• Don Black
• James von Brunn
• Richard Butler
• Gheorghe Buzatu
• Corneliu Codreanu
• Nichifor Crainic
• A. C. Cuza
• Édouard Drumont
• David Duke
• Adolf Eichmann
• Louis Farrakhan
• Ferdinand and Isabella
• László Ferenczy
• Henry Ford
• Theodor Fritsch
• Nick Fuentes
• Joseph Goebbels
• Octavian Goga
• Ursula Haverbeck
• Heinrich Himmler
• Adolf Hitler
• Nae Ionescu
• David Irving
• Arthur Jones
• Ali Khamenei
• Ruhollah Khomeini
• Pavel Krushevan
• bin Laden
• David Lane
• Ernest G. Liebold
• Martin Luther
• Kevin MacDonald
• Wilhelm Marr
• Mohammed Merah
• Simon de Montfort
• Khalid Muhammad
• Eustace Mullins
• Gamal Abdel Nasser
• Philippe Pétain
• Symon Petliura
• William Pierce
• Alfred Rosenberg
• Horia Sima
• Ioan Slavici
• Richard Spencer
• Joseph Stalin
• Wilhelm Stapel
• Julius Streicher
• Kevin Strom
• Mustafa Tlass
• Richard Wagner
• Kanye West
• Otto Weininger
• Rick Wiles
• Ernst Zündel

Recent back and forth on the people section should be resolved here before deleting entire sections from the template itself. I previously suggested the people list should be deleted. Obviously, we have one other editor (@Historicallibrarian) who agrees. I think it's worthwhile to spell out why here. דברי.הימים (talk) 08:41, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Accessibility nightmare this is not an index - only top level articles should be here. Way to big WP:SIDEBAR = " templates with a large number of links are not forbidden, but can appear overly busy and be hard to read and use " and should drop all the <br> codes all over MOS:NOBREAKS. Moxy🍁 15:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Moxy. thanks for pointing out that policy re: br code. Is this a WP-wide thing of just sidebars? In any event, I've removed the br code from the geo and books sections. Other items in geo section seem more notable than most links in the ppl section. But I'll see if there's a better way to format to avoid the busy look. דברי.הימים (talk) 09:21, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

This bar has extreme neutrality issues. I could try and delete it again but I know thats a waste of time when some will only want to mention by name some Israel haters and not the others I inserted. There must be a way of highlighting this section's partiality, beyond merely a tag, so that the bar remains but is marked up for its unreliability? Historicallibrarian (talk) 22:41, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Historicallibrarian, it seems a plain deletion of the section has stirred things up. I presume this can be dealt with in one of two ways: 1) establish a stricter criteria for the list and delete those who dont meet it. e.g., it must be based on a WP category. 2) present a convincing argument why it must be deleted in full. דברי.הימים (talk) 09:24, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

i suppose a (temporary) third option is to add more individuals to the list until it is large enough to force consensus on options 1 & 2. דברי.הימים (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree though I tried that and some self proclaimed 'antizionist' in London deleted my entries. Historicallibrarian (talk) 02:28, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

At this point your best to seek conccesus for mass additions. Moxy🍁 07:00, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@Buidhe: - @Firefangledfeathers: can we get a second look at all the bio violations going on. This was getting out of control and with no edit summary we have no clue what mass additions are being done.Moxy🍁 07:03, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

this edit simply a copy paste from another sidebar.....now have mass repeating links all over. Moxy🍁 07:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

דברי.הימים, regarding your comment above (add more individuals to the list until it is large enough to force consensus) – please don't; that would be WP:POINTY. Mathglot (talk) 07:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I note your potential concern. But given that there are quite a number of individuals who would qualify for insertion into the section, adding them would only present an aesthetic issue with the section growing too large. I thought that was self-evident, given the scale of the topic, the number of notable antisemitic incidents recorded on WP, the number of people involved. דברי.הימים (talk) 08:28, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

At the very least, living people should be removed. The sidebar has no source, and reliance on their being proper source in the targeted article overlooks the fact that that article is subject to editing without this sidebar being changed. Antisemitism is a harsh charge (not an undue one, all too frequently, don't get me wrong) and people should be attached to such a word in Wikipedia only with very clear sourcing. If Wikipedia needs a list of antisemites (I'm not convinced it does), it could be as a list article which could be an entry in the sidebar and where any entries to the list could be properly sourced. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 13:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with NatGertler. Labeling living people with contentious terms requires extensive sourcing per WP:LABEL. A sidebar that has no sourcing is not an appropriate place to include living people for a topic such as this. – notwally (talk) 23:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Removing living people is a good call. But I propose the entire section be deleted per the following:

• Having a section of "notable antisemites" on a prominent sidebar appears to be an act of glorification.
• Even if the criteria is "notable dead antisemites", we would end up with the possible nomination of the following (at a minimum):
  • Any perpetrator of attacks on Jews (e.g. every notable Nazi official, any other official involved in a pogrom, etc.)
  • Any monarch who expelled Jews (that's a good handful)
  • Any author of an antisemitic publication

The eventual result could be the collation of enough material to form it's own sidebar, which would be very strange to see דברי.הימים (talk) 08:47, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the section should be removed. Its far too contentious and many antisemites hide behind the facade of being 'antizionist. In other words, they feign no hostility to Jews per se, but dont want them living in the Middle East. Historicallibrarian (talk) 12:26, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I also favor removing the section. For a related situation in the category world, see the lack of a Category:Antisemites, the caveat at the top of Category:Antisemitism about individuals not being listed there, and the 2011 Rfc about Bias categories that resulted in banning named individuals from a dozen Anti-FOOism categories, including Category:Antisemitism. That Rfc does not govern what happens at a sidebar template, but I think the reasoning there is sound, and we would do well to follow it here as well, or come up with an overwhelming argument why not. Mathglot (talk) 07:23, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

So far, this has been open for a full six days with not only strong arguments for removal, but literally zero arguments given for keeping this section. At what point can we just snow close this? -- Nat Gertler (talk) 11:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Now.--Launchballer 02:26, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I note that @Moxy had previously reverted the deletion of the section but has not provided an argument here. דברי.הימים (talk) 04:38, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

You're mistaken in my actions..... I simply reverted to version before the mass link spam with zero edit summaries. No one's going to take the time to review 50 edits to see what was added when the first thing you see is a contentious edit e.i Kanye West. After reviewing the template closer there seem to be other glaring problems... aside from the massive link spam which we are all addressing here. Please keep in mind these navigation templates aren't indexes of every article related to a topic should be high level articles only.... and those high-level articles lead you to other articles. Moxy🍁 04:50, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah, yes. I was going to get to your point you have made earlier. From my view, what you have determined was spam mass linking I would argue represents a potential improvement to restructure the template in such a way that is more helpful for readers who are interested in the topic and would want to view information sorted in such fashion. But I will first look over the links before presenting a proposal for those interested to consider. My ambition for this template is to incorporate the best elements from the existing antisemitism navboxes in terms of major concepts, major events, and to offer a global perspective. I am sure that most editors will find that a net positive for WP. דברי.הימים (talk) 09:42, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Note: Consensus requirement

In my capacity as an uninvolved administrator, I have imposed the following consensus required restriction on this template pursuant to the ARBBLP regime of contentious topics enforcement:

Living people's names, if removed, may not be re-added without affirmative consensus on the talk page

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Editors should also be aware that the extended confirmed restriction for Arab–Israeli conflict content applies to this template and its talkpage, as it does on all pages on Wikipedia. Non-extendedconfirmed accounts should not be making comments about conflict-related matters. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe) 08:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Creativity (religion)

For now, I have moved Creativity (religion) down within List 2 (Manifestations), from its previous top billing (adjacent to 'Academic' and 'Economic') to one among several parenthesized links under Religious antisemitism. Creativity (ex-World Church of the Creator) is a very fringe religious group with antisemitic and anti-Christian beliefs, which certainly does not deserve mention at the same level as the top links where it was previously. This link was added in this edit in 2017 during the short wiki-career of 2600:1700:6661:3BD0:209C:61AF:10FE:3559, and I don't know what their motivation was, but of all the antisemitic groups in the world, I see no reason to single them out; if anything, it might even have been to glorify them unduly.

Sidebars present overview information, and currently only five religions are named in links. In my opinion, this group does not merit mention in this template at all, regardless of its views. But I leave that up to discussion. Mathglot (talk) 20:49, 27 November 2024 (UTC)