Template talk:Arabic language

Suggestion

I suggest changing Gim To Jim, since "J" is pronounced in one way as Jack while G could pronounced in two different ways as Google and Garbage radiant guy (talk) 07:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I recognize the concern. However, this template (and Wikipedia in general) uses the DIN 31635 transliteration system, and "Ǧ/ǧ" (note the caron) is standard there. Though this is justification enough, I suppose I owe you an explanation for why DIN 31365 is the way it is, so here goes:

As you doubtless know, Ǧīm has multiple pronunciations acceptable for Modern Standard Arabic: though the standard is in fact the voiced postalveolar affricate /d͡ʒ/ (the "J" in "Jack"), the voiced postalveolar fricative /ʒ/ (the "s" in "pleasure") and the voiced velar plosive /g/ (the "g" in "google") are regional variants and acceptable for use in official speech (watch an Egyptian news show, and they use "/g/" every time even though everything else is otherwise MSA). Beyond that, in the reconstruction of Classical Arabic phonology, the original sound was the palatalized voiced velar plosive /gʲ/; see Proto-Semitic. Lockesdonkey (talk) 17:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Abjad numerals link on template

Labeling this link as "numerology" only captures one particular way in which the abjad sequence is used (maybe not the most important one), and leaves out all other aspects... AnonMoos (talk) 20:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

The template title Arabic · العربية

Is that a good idea? It's fine for Arabists like us, but 99% of English-speaking people are not Arabists. Varlaam (talk) 21:47, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I know this is a rather late response, but the Arabic text in the template is actually just decoration, rather like the letters in Template:Hebrew language, on which this template is based. I chose the image that said "العربية" rather than use Arabic letters because (1) I'm rather lazy, and that image was already on Wikipedia, while I would have had to create the new image if I wanted to put up just some letters, (2) I realized that deciding whether I wanted to go modern or abjadi would be a headache (former is more accurate; the latter shows a greater diversity of letter shapes), (3) the current image shows the cursive nature of Arabic script, and (4) I think this just plain looks cooler--and given that the only reason it's there is to make the template look cooler, methinks that this is the most important consideration. Lockesdonkey (talk) 06:16, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Expansion

Is there a way to reasonably include Arkansas Arabic Translation Award, Arabic machine translation, Banipal Prize for Arabic Literary Translation and Project of Translation from Arabic on the template? MezzoMezzo (talk) 08:55, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, no, I think these articles are outside the scope of this template. But they might have a place in some other navbox, maybe even a new one. --NSH001 (talk) 15:56, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

OK. Given the rather general scope of the template, it might be wise to create a template specific to translation to and from Arabic. However, Arabic machine translation seems to be sufficiently general to put in the "Academic" subbox as well. Lockesdonkey (talk) 21:49, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Bedouin and Shawi

Where should we put Bedouin Arabic and Shawi Arabic in this template? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:31, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Bedouin Arabic is a broad typological (and partly social) classification that spans the entire MENA region, and would not fit into any of the geographical groups used in the template. Likewise, for Shawi which is a subset of Bedouin Arabic spoken in both the Levant and Mesopotamia. Coolcat108 (talk) 07:54, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

So where do we put them in the template @Coolcat108?

Talay, S. (2011). Arabic dialects of Mesopotamia. In G. Khan, M. P. Streck, J. C. E. Watson, & S. Weninger (Eds.), The Semitic languages: An international handbook (Vol. 36, pp. 909-920). Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter classifies Shawi as a Gilit dialect so I'll put it there.

What about Bedouin Arabic: on a new line? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:17, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I would suggest something like Varieties > Sociological > Bedouin Arabic. I think that would also allow adding an article for “Sedentary Arabic” if it ever is created, which is plausible Coolcat108 (talk) 09:28, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree. And maybe rural/urban in the future as well. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:34, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

 Done @Coolcat108 a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:38, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Nilo-Egyptian

On the Varieties of Arabic page, Sudanese and Egyptian are considered to be two separate groups. Also, grouping Egyptian and Sudanese varieties is not uncontroversial: https://doi.org/10.3390/languages6030123. Should these two groups be separated? Coolcat108 (talk) 07:57, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

What about following Glottolog for the whole template? Family: Arabic

In any case, we should mention the sources used in the documentation here. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:23, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I think Glottolog’s tree has too many issues to be used here (for example classifying Baharna and Dhofari as North Arabian Beduin dialects, or the ‘Bedawi’ dialects of Sinai/Levant as Egyptic) It also uses names not commonly found in academic literature (Egyptic?) Coolcat108 (talk) 10:00, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

OK. But do we have one reliable source to classify all varieties @Coolcat108? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:10, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

By the way, feel free to give them feedback: https://github.com/glottolog/glottolog/issues They implement changes if you give reliable sources. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:10, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I think Versteegh “The Arabic Language” (2nd ed.) (Chapter 11) is a good starting point, though he does classify Sudanese as a sub-variety of Egyptian, this is based more on historical considerations. Coolcat108 (talk) 10:17, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Versteegh gives in Chapter 11:

1. Dialects of the Arabian peninsula
   1. North-east Arabian dialects: Najdi
      1. ʿAnazī dialects (including the dialects of Kuwait, Bahrain (Sunnī) and the Gulf states)
      2. the Šammar dialects (including some of the Bedouin dialects in Iraq)
      3. Syro-Mesopotamian Bedouin dialects (including the Bedouin dialects of North Israel and Jordan, and the dialect of the Dawāġrah, a pariah tribe in the northern Sinai littoral)
   2. South(-west) Arabian dialects: Yemen, Hadramaut and Ade + Shiʿite Baḥārna in Bahrain
   3. Ḥijāzī (West Arabian) dialects: Bedouin dialects of the Ḥijāz and the Tihāma. And maybe "urban centres in this area, chiefly Mecca and Medina"?
   4. North-west Arabian dialects: Negev and the Sinai + southern Jordan + eastern coast of the Gulf of ʿAqaba and "some regions in north-western Saudi Arabia"
2. Syro-Lebanese dialects (= sedentary Levantine)
   1. Lebanese/Central Syrian (Damascus) including Druze Arabic + Cypriot Arabic
   2. North Syrian (Aleppo)
   3. Palestinian/Jordanian dialects
      1. Palestinian urban
      2. Central Palestinian rural
      3. South Palestinian/Jordanian dialects (including the Ḥōrān)
3. (Greater) Mesopotamian dialects
   1. qǝltu
      1. Tigris
      2. Euphrates
      3. Anatolian group
   2. gilit
      1. Muslim Baghdadi
      2. Khuzestani urban
4. Egyptian dialects
   1. Baggara / Chadian / Nigerian Arabic / Sudanic Arabic (quite unclear here)
   2. Egypt proper
      1. Delta
         1. Eastern Delta (Šarqiyya)
         2. Western Delta
      2. Cairo
      3. Middle Egypt (Gizeh to Asyūṭ)
      4. Upper Egyptian dialects (Asyūṭ to the south) (Saʿīḍī?)
         1. Between Asyūṭ and Nag Hammadi
         2. Between Nag Hammadi and Qēna
         3. Between Qēna and Luxor
         4. Between Luxor and Esna
5. Maghreb dialects
   1. pre-Hilālī (all urban)
      1. Eastern pre-Hilālī: Libya, Tunisia, eastern Algeria
      2. Western pre-Hilālī: western Algeria and Morocco
   2. Hilālī: Bedouin dialects of North Africa
      1. Sulaym: east = Libya (inc. Tripoli?) + southern Tunisia
      2. Eastern Hilāl: central Tunisia and eastern Algeria
      3. Central Hilāl: south and central Algeria, especially border areas of the Sahara
      4. Maʿqil: western Algeria and Morocco (plains)
         1. Ḥassāniyya
   3. Malta (in pre-Hilālī?)
   4. al-ʾAndalus

Correct @Coolcat108? If so we should edit Classification_of_Arabic_languages#Arabic_varieties and add this classification according to Versteegh. And then update this accordingly? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:40, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Regarding creoles and peripheral varieties, he writes:

• pp. 189–190: "The dialects spoken in the linguistic enclaves groups ultimately derive from dialect groups in the central areas, Cypriot Maronite Arabic being a Syro-Lebanese type of dialect, Maltese being a North African type of dialect, and so on."
• Chapter 16
  • Juba Arabic: "a pidginised form of (Egyptian–Sudanese) Arabic"
  • Ki-Nubi: "developed out of Juba Arabic".
  • Central Asian Arabic: "Their dialect turned out to be related to the Mesopotamian and Anatolian qǝltu dialects, but it had developed in a special way. [...] Belonging as it does to the qǝltu group, Uzbekistan Arabic exhibits many of the typical features of a sedentary dialect." (although, "statistically, Uzbekistan Arabic turns out to have more in common with Western Sudanic Arabic.")
  • Nigerian Arabic and Baggara Arabic: "Within these dialects, two groups may be distinguished: the dialects of Nigeria, Cameroon, and part of Chad, which Owens calls ‘Bagirmi Arabic’; and the urban dialects of Chad, for example, those of N’Djamena and Abbéché." "The features of Nigerian Arabic are those of Bedouin dialects in general"

a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:51, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I think this is probably the most accurate (and detailed) traditional classification by geography, and a good reference point for updating the template and the pages dealing with classification of varieties. Coolcat108 (talk) 10:52, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Got it, feel free to update Classification_of_Arabic_languages#Arabic_varieties as I can't do it now. (otherwise I'll do it later today or tomorrow) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:54, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

 Done => Classification_of_Arabic_languages#Modern_spoken_Arabic_varieties a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:07, 4 January 2023 (UTC)