Template talk:Cities administered by the State of Palestine

Hebrew/Arabic names

Is this not English Wikipedia? I see no need for the Hebrew and Arabic names to be used, imho it makes the template look ugly. This also seems not to be the standard practice. Chesdovi 16:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree their Arabic and Hebrew names will be stated in their articles -- Al Ameer son 19:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

East Jerusalem is a place, not a city

Removed. Amoruso 21:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't "East Jerusalem" refer to the part of Jerusalem that is inside the West Bank? I mean before 1967, no one could have said that "West Jerusalem" is not a city, even though it was split.Vice regent 20:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

At the time Jerusalem was a city divied in half. Two mayors. Now there is one Mayor. The city is called Jerusalem. The city was never called West Jerusalem or East Jerusalem. Both sides called it Jerusalem. Amoruso 09:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

But regardless of the "facts on the ground" established by Israel, it is still treated by eminently reliable sources as a part of the West Bank. In any case, if your objection is that it is "a place, not a city" the logical answer would be to put Jerusalem in the template, perhaps with a note such as "(partial)." <eleland/talkedits> 20:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

PNA vs. Hamas

I have restored the original version of this template after it had been split into separate ones for the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The Gaza Strip is still officially part of the PNA and the fact Hamas is the real power there doesn't mean it's no longer so. Gaza hasn't seceded and the template will not be split because of political rifts between Hamas and Fatah. A possible suggestion is to have an asterisk next the Gaza Strip row saying the territory is currently under a Hamas-run administration or something along those lines. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:33, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

PA authority in Gaza is completely undue since 2007 conflict. The relation of Gaza strip to PNA is no different that relation of Gaza to Israel or to Egypt or to UK (all are former administrators). It is like both North and South Korea claim sovereignity over the entire peninsula. It fails WP:VERIFABILITY. Unless you can bring a reliable source to link PNA with Gaza, i revert you back per WP:OR; WP:VERIFABILITY and WP:RS.Greyshark09 (talk) 04:58, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, your earlier move to split the template was in contradiction of the three guidelines you cited above. As far as governance and international recognition is concerned the GS and WB are still under the PA. It's just a matter of who's the legitimate leadership of the PA government. Ismail Haniyeh was not the elected Prime Minister of Gaza or Hamas, but the Prime Minister of the PA including the West Bank. After the brief coup/civil strife in 2007, he was ejected from that role by Abbas and replaced with Salam Fayyad. In other words, there has been no formal secession concerning Gaza and the Ramallah leadership, it's just violence-abetted politics that has these two territories split on a de facto, not de jure level. In fact, the political conflict between the two administrations has largely subsided with the recent Doha deal, even if (as usual) its implementation has been delayed. North and South Korea on the other hand are internationally recognized as independent countries and its been that way for decades. I advise you not to revert my restoration, since something of this nature could have wider repercussions throughout the topic area where we'll be demarcating all the Palestinian-related articles between the Hamas-run PA and the Fatah-run PA on a weak notion that they're officially split. Rather, I suggest you bring this subject up for a wider discussion at WP:Palestine or another wikicommunity venue. As for the template, to reiterate, I could agree on having a note clarifying the situation in GS or we could rename the template "Cities in the Palestinian territories" but then we'd have to include East Jerusalem. Regards, --Al Ameer son (talk) 15:43, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree to rename this to "cities in the Palestinian teritories" and have a remark on difference governance of Gaza and West Bank.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:28, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Ok, but we'd also have to include East Jerusalem and have another remark about its political status i.e. annexed by Israel, but internationally recognized as part of Pal territories or something along those lines. You could make the changes and we'll move on from there. Cheers. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:49, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Why exclude Israeli-administered cities

Regarding this revert, why exclude Israeli-administered cities, when we can separate them into their own sub-section away from the PNA cities like this. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:03, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

This is about PNA administered cities, not cities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. If you want to change the topic, ask to rename.Greyshark09 (talk) 07:30, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

It's just the name of a template, it doesn't matter too much what we call it. If the title is what's bothering you I could redo my edit and move the template, but do you have a reason to exclude Israeli-administered from this template? You said "This is about PNA administered cities", any reason for it not to be abut both PNA-administered and Israeli-administered cities? I don't think it would be worth making a new template for West Bank/Gaza cities in general, it'd be too much a duplicate of this one. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:53, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I guess I'll rename the template then. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 13:20, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

you violated WP:MOVE and this is pretty much against WP:CIVIL. We got a clear understanding so far that all moves and renames will not go without discussion; this violates this status quo, which i will however keep on my behalf. I advice you to do the same.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:00, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't clear to me, I said "If the title is what's bothering you I could redo my edit and move the template" you didn't object so I did. The name doesn't really matter, the reader never sees it. Do have a reason for this to not cover both not to be abut both Palestinian-administered and Israeli-administered cities.

Also your consent assertions about term "Palestinian territories" has already been rejected by 6 editors (including me), also contradicts the long standing lead of Palestinian territories has described the PT as consisting of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and, the overwhelming majority of RS, which describe the PT as consisting of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, so please don't use that as a reason. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:06, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Rename

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page not moved Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 09:37, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

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Considering the recent upgrade of the Palestinian National Authority to become a non-member observer state on Nov. 29, 2012 (officially the State of Palestine); the official UN designation change of "Palestine / PLO" to "State of Palestine" (Dec. 20, 2012) and this week's decree by Palestinian President Abbas to change all Palestinian institutions to become "State of Palestine" institutions ("President Abbas signed a presidential decree changing the name of the Palestinian Authority to the “State of Palestine,” following the Palestinians’ upgraded status at the United Nations as a non-member observer state." [1]), with the change already taking place (see Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics [2]) i propose to change the template name from "template:Cities in the Palestinian National Authority areas" to "template:Cities in the State of Palestine". Please vote support or oppose.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:08, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

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Template:Cities in the Palestinian National Authority areas → Template:Cities in the State of Palestine – Due to the recently announced transition from Palestinian Authority to the State of Palestine by Palestinian President AbbasGreyshark09 (talk) 17:35, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I think editors who participated in other Palestine-related moves (e.g. [3], [4], [5], etc) should be notified for that one. Japinderum (talk) 07:31, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - Wikipedia titles are not governed by the UN and besides it's NOT the PNA who became non-member observer state, but the PLO's SoP declared in 1988.[6] So, the UN actions are irrelevant for the topic here. And that was explained at multiple closed move requests already. As for the recent moves by to rename PNA institutions to use the "State of Palestine" name - see here and here - so far the sources are only about PNA rename and not PNA merge into SoP (there are sources implying that this may happen soon, but it still isn't[7]) and currently the "1988 SoP" and the "PNA in process of renaming" are still separate and distinct entities. So using the same name for both only adds to the confusion already present around those topics. Also, the sources show that the PNA operating as the Oslo Accords authority (regardless of its name) will continue to exist as non-state authority until the Israel occupation continues. In any case the substantial decisions are not yet taken and it's too early - WP:RECENTISM - Wikipedia is not supposed to "lead" the process, but to follow it. Finally, the proposed new title, if utilized without additional qualifier (such as "Cities in the State of Palestine areas under Oslo Accords Palestinian Authority administration") would change the scope of the article to include Area C, which it currently doesn't. I disagree with adding Area C Israeli settlements to the template and I also disagree with changing its name to such unnecessary convoluted one. Japinderum (talk) 07:31, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose -- You do not make a polity into a state merely by announcing it. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:48, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - this is a template. Renaming it is not going to make Palestine a state, just as granting it "non-member observer state status" does not make it a state. That essential word "status" was missing from the above. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a method of promoting or denying statehood. All we do is report on the facts, and the facts right now are that Palestine is a territory within the state of Israel (and personally I think that if Israel split itself into two states, Palestine and Israel, it would just split itself again in a few years, and a few years, making the splits pointless). Apteva (talk) 07:10, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

What's a city?

According to what criteria (or following what authority) was the list made? Cheers. — Arpose (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Hey there, guys. That wasn't a rhetorical question; I'd seriously like to know. Thanks.—Arpose (talk) 20:18, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi. Some talk pages, like those on templates, can be hard to notice and you can try for example WT:PALESTINE when you do not get any answers. There are some info at Municipality (Palestinian Authority) but Huldra knows more. --IRISZOOM (talk) 00:17, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I wish I could be of some help, but this is not really my area. Most of these templates were set up by User:Ashley kennedy3 (who was very good on geography, but is rarely here these days) or User:Al Ameer son (who is also taking long breaks these days). I frankly do not know more than what I´ve read at Municipality (Palestinian Authority) (pre-1948 history is more "my" thing) Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:51, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay. Here are some info from the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics:

Governorates include groups of towns, villages, and refugee camps; each of them is called locality. Each locality has serial national code of four figures starting from 0005. The astrological site for a point in the middle of the locality (centroid) was determined in accordance with topographical maps 1/50000 according to the local coordinates network. Then they were arranged in a serial manner according to their geographic site from north to south and from east to west. A quintuple hierarchy was placed between the code of each locality in order to allow future addition of any national codes for any new localities. The codes of the governorates were integrated with the national locality code to form a 6 digits locality national code. The first two digits from the left are the governorate code, while the left four digits are the locality code. For instance, the first locality, starting from the north (Zububa locality in Jenin governorate), took the following code 010005.

It seems this translates to "urban", "rural" and "camps" on the localities that can be seen at Population Projections, such as Localities in Bethlehem Governorate by Type of Locality and Population Estimates, 2007-2016. Here (or use this link) is another list of localities.

So "city" does not seem be used by the PCBS. However, this is nothing unusual. In Sweden for example, "city" is not used either by Statistics Sweden.

Some more info about the PCBS' definition:

Locality Type:

Localities have been divided into three types: Urban, Rural, Camps

Urban: Any locality whose population amounts to 10,000 persons or more. This applies to all governorates/districts centers regardless of their size. Besides, it refers to all localities whose populations vary from 4,000 to 9,999 persons provided they have, at least, four of the following elements: public electricity network, public water network, post office, health center with a full – time physician and a school offering a general secondary education certificate.

Rural: Any locality whose population is less than 4,000 persons or whose population varies from 4,000 to 9,999 persons but lacking four of the aforementioned elements.

Camp: It refers to any locality referred to as a refugee camp and administered by the United Nations Refugees and Work Agency in the Near East (U.N.R.W.A.). --IRISZOOM (talk) 11:56, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Change the title?

The title here is called "Cities in Palestinian Authority areas", which is an awkard title. The government was called "the Palestinian (National) Authority" and the territory "the Palestinian territories". I have brought up a similiar issue at Talk:List of cities administered by the State of Palestine#Division between West Bank and Gaza. There is a consensus in the world that the area is called the Palestinian territories or State of Palestine.

As can be seen in some sections above, a move was rejected in early January 2013. Since then, many pages have been moved to include "State of Palestine". Even "Palestinian territories" is fine and much better than the current one. Anyway, I don't think there should be disparity between the template name and the article name and now there is a bigger one than before. That is because it was changed to "List of cities administered by the State of Palestine" from "List of cities administered by the Palestinian National Authority" two months ago. --IRISZOOM (talk) 04:14, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@IRISZOOM: -  Done in August already.GreyShark (dibra) 09:43, 12 October 2015 (UTC)