Template talk:Countries and territories of Southeast Asia

Standardization suggestion - please contribute!

A suggestion for a standard approach to the naming, titling and sections of this and similar templates has been made here – please visit and share your thoughts!  Thanks, David Kernow (talk) 03:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Papua

Joining ASEAN. Papua New Guinea asks RP support for Asean membership bid Retrieved July 8, 2009 Somare seeks PGMA's support for PNG's ASEAN membership bid Retrieved July 8, 2009--23prootie (talk) 17:35, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Taiwan as an independent country

Please provide a list of countries that recognized Taiwan as an independent Country and not Republic of China. If not i will remove them. LLTimes (talk) 17:52, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Taiwan

Though politically not part of Southeast Asia, Taiwan is clearly part of Southeast Asia by geography (supported by sources in the Southeast Asia article). Should the inclusion criteria of this template solely politics? 218.250.143.16 (talk) 22:14, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Considering the name of the template (Template:Countries and territories of Southeast Asia) and the sectioning of the template ("Sovereign states, Dependent territories, Subdivisions, Disputed territories"), I say yes. Quigley (talk) 22:17, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

The Andaman and Nicobar Islands aren't politically part of Southeast Asia. And yet it's included. Also on the list is Hainan. Meanwhile Papua New Guinea is observer of ASEAN since 1976 and special observer since 1981, and is bidding for (full) membership of the ASEAN, yet it isn't included. I'd suppose geography to be the major criteria. 218.250.143.16 (talk) 22:24, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

There is no point having this template saying one thing and the Taiwan article saying another. Indeed, this conversation should actually be at the Taiwan page – if there is consensus to changing that article to say it’s in SE Asia, then this template should be changed automatically. --Merbabu (talk) 04:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: Not taking any sides as of now, though I'd like to point something out. Wikipedia is built on WP:RS and WP:V, and not the WP:TRUTH. If users want to include Taiwan in the template, they'll have to prove that Taiwan is considered part of SE Asia by general consensus. (Post a few URLs and ISBNs on this talk page or something.) If you can manage this, then you can by all means do it; there is no policy stopping you. Otherwise, you cannot just do it on a whim. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 07:16, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree on "general consensus" but that's not the same as posting a few URLs - the URLs must prove the general consensus, and not just say it's part of SE Asia. And again, I don't think this is a question for the template, rather, the Taiwan article needs the change (or not), then this template can follow suit. cheers --Merbabu (talk) 08:08, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

• Exclude It is not normally considered part of SE Asia. TFD (talk) 14:54, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
  • And yes normally the press would describe President Obama as Black or Afro-American rather than mixed heritage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.48.93.150 (talk) 22:17, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• Include Something which is completely surrounded by Southeast Asia is quite logically to be considered within SE Asia. Unless, of course, it does not exist, which I doubt anyone could claim with a straight face. Collect (talk) 16:07, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

• Exclude both for the lack of a basis of consensus amongst published sources that TW is part of SE Asia and TW is not completely surrounded by undeniably Southeast Asian countries, as Collect falsely noted above. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 16:16, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

• Taiwan is substantially south of Japan - which is East Asia. China covers a great deal of Asia - and including a large amount in SE Asia, off the coast of which Taiwan lies. IIRC. Taiwan extends south of the northern borders of Laos and Vietnam, and is mainly south of Myanmar. Thus the "south" part is hard to deny. We do not have a template for "other parts of east Asis which are not politically in 'southeast Asia'" at this point. Thus my position that something in the east of Asia and in the south of Asia would normally be considered in the southeast part of Asia. Perhaps English is not the primary language here? Collect (talk) 16:36, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

• That is one possible interpretation, but we have to consider culture and politics as well, which is one reason why the Far East of Russia is not generally considered to be part of "East Asia". And even adhering to your interpretation lends some trouble: show me reliable sources that state that southern Fujian, which includes the city of Xiamen and is across the strait from Taiwan, is seen as being part of Southeast Asia. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 17:01, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Would not Macau (in the list) be closer to Taiwan culturally than it is to the Philippines? And is not Papua far more a Pacific Island nation then it is remotely related culturally to Macau? Once we have Macau in the list, it is really hard to justify the hop-jumping to exclude Taiwan. Collect (talk) 17:58, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Then this discussion should expand to discuss whether the two SARs should even be on here. —HXL's Roundtable and Record 19:28, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

• Include. It's not hard to find sources that state that Taiwan is part of south-east Asia (eg. [1][2]). In addition, this interview [3] with Taiwan's (then?) foreign affairs minister Huang Chih-fang quotes him as also saying Taiwan is in south-east Asia. A significant number of academic sources seem to concur. Even if book/academic sources lack consensus as suggested above (though this isn't uncommon), one would think that a senior politician commenting on his own country's location in the world might help tip the balance of doubt in favour of inclusion. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 05:49, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Both of the book sources you cite for Taiwan's inclusion in Southeast Asia use uncommon definitions of Southeast Asia not generally used by Wikipedia: one of those definitions includes Melanesia and Micronesia, and the other includes North Korea and South Korea. Quigley (talk) 21:11, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
    • IOW using Wikipedia as a source for Wikipedia has a specific result = which is meaningless - each consensus on Wikipedia stands on its own. Wikipedia is not a valid source for Wikipedia <g>. Collect (talk) 21:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
      • "Wikipedia" was shorthand for all of the reliable sources and organizations cited in the article for Southeast Asia. Quigley (talk) 21:44, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
    • With all due respects, the title of the chapter of that book is "Southeast Asia and the Pacific", and the author defined it as "Mainland and Island Southeast Asia", Melanesia and Micronesia. The latter two don't fall within the author's definition of Southeast Asia. 218.250.143.16 (talk) 17:40, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
• Include. Inclusion based on geography. I don't agree with its exclusion solely because of politics. 218.250.143.16 (talk) 17:40, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
• Exclude Sure, of there 100s (1000s even?) of sources that would describe SE Asia, I’m sure we could find a few that include Taiwan. But sources need to verify that Taiwan’s inclusion is indeed the general consensus. It is clear that it is not. If it was, then the Wikipedia Taiwan article would clearly state Taiwan as belonging to SE Asia. Further, Taiwan is not completely surrounded by SE Asia, and support inclusion based on this notion need to be discounted. --Merbabu (talk) 21:36, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
  • This is a navigational template. Links can be added if something falls within a certain category according to some definitions. This is why, for instance, Armenia, Cyprus and Georgia would appear in European templates. 116.49.131.7 (talk) 16:32, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
• Include The purpose of templates is to help readers quickly find information: we should err on the side of more, rather than fewer, links. Taiwan is a borderline case, because politically it is not in SE Asia, but geographically it is. I don't think that including Taiwan in this template endorses any political viewpoint. Nuance can be supplied by including Taiwan in one of the lower portions of the template (that is, Taiwan should not be in the "Sovereign State" portion of the template). Taiwan is mentioned in the lead paragraph of the Southeast Asia article, so it would be perverse to excluded it from the namesake template. --Noleander (talk) 19:04, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

• Exclude
  

1. All of Taiwan lies north of the equator.
2. Two-thirds of Taiwan lies north of the tropic of Cancer (the traditional dividing line.)
3. Racially and Culturally Taiwan has MUCH more in common with NE Asia than with SE Asia.
Long island bob (talk) 18:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

• Additional Comments:
  

- Taiwan is not a part of SEATO
- It is not a member of ASEAN
- It is hosting the 2011 Northeat asian Open (a debating competiton) (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Taiwan-Northeast-Asian-Open-2011/170347176326628)
- The commerical shipping industry considers Taiwan to be part of Northeast Asia (http://www.visaglobal.com.au/news/client-alerts/)
- Scholars consider Taiwan to be part of Northest Asia (at least when discussing economic matters) (http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2010/11/17/north-east-asian-economic-integration-apec-or-fta-games/)
Long island bob (talk) 18:53, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

• • Pakistan, Australia and NZ are members of the SEATO. East Timor and Papua New Guinea aren't full members of the ASEAN. Vietnam, Burma, Laos and Kampuchea aren't members of the ASEAN until the 1990s. Membership isn't readily a reliable criteria.
  • Almost the entirety of Southeast Asia lies north of the equator.., and the northern tip of Burma lies way more north than Taiwan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.48.93.150 (talk) 22:01, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

• Include. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.48.93.150 (talk) 22:15, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

"Sovereignty disputed" section

I don't understand why these need to be listed. it's not like their inclusion within southeast asia is disputed, rather their possession is disputed (which is irrelevant for the template). It gives a lot of undue weight to relatively minor geographic features in front of many other large features that don't appear in the template. So I'm removing them. --Merbabu (talk) 10:24, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Aren't these islands part of Southeast Asia? 218.250.143.16 (talk) 17:42, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not questioning whether they are in SE Asia. I'm questioning why they need to be listed separately? --Merbabu (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2011 (UTC)