Template talk:Hidden sort key

Template repurposed

This template used to be an redirect to {{Hearts}} but such use has been deprecated and it has been repurposed.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Yecril (talk • contribs) 18:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Alphabetical sorting

Shorter words should, in an alphabetical listing, precede words that begin with the letters that comprise them. Boa should be listed before Boat. This template fails to acheive that. Kevin McE (talk) 11:02, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

I think that behaviour has not much to do with this template but with the way Wikimedia's sort method works. There's a lengthy discussion at Template talk:Sort.

Given two fields, {{Hs|Boa}}Boa constrictor and {{Hs|Boat}}Boat, I assume the sort will be performed on BoaBoa constrictor and on BoatBoat. Have you tried to add a trailing blank to {{Hs|Boa }}? A cleaner method would be to use the dedicated sort field data-sort-value, but apparently that doesn't work; see Help talk:Sorting#Attribute data-sort-value. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:20, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Merge

Shouldn't {{sms}} be merged here? It seems to be doing exactly the same thing. --Waldir ^talk 19:48, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

• Agree and support. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:18, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

I added the proposal at WP:TFD to gather more opinions. --Waldir ^talk 15:01, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Deprecated?

Regarding this edit which claims that this template is now deprecated: Where was this discussed? Ad rem: I know that |data-sort-value= has been available for some time, but it's seriouly inconvient (and cluttering the source text). Compare

|data-sort-value="Doe, John"|[[John Doe|Doe, John]] with

|{{hs|Doe, John}}[[John Doe|Doe, John]] or even with

|{{sn|John|Doe}}

Use of these templates is wide-spread and I can't see why a much more labour intensive method should be compulsory. The same notice has been placed on {{hid}}, {{sort}}, and {{sortname}} as well; the same argument again deprecating applies there. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:17, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The hatnote at WP:SORT § Sorting with a hidden key reads, "This methodology is deprecated, in favor of using data-sort-value". {{Hs}} and its contemporaries make use of this exact same method, ergo they're deprecated. Due to complications with their usage, it is not possible to convert them to use data-sort-value; it would be better to create a new series of sort-key templates if verbosity is a concern. Alakzi (talk) 10:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

That hatnote was introduced by the esteemed User:TheDJ in July 2013. I know that the |data-sort-value= method is a valuable improvement, and I have used it occasionally, but "deprecated" implies that these templates are going to be phased out, or at least that they should no longer be used. I would like to see where this has been discussed. If it hasn't, the tone of the notice should be turned down to offer advice about alternative methods of sorting, such as WP:SORT#Sorting with a hidden key. IMO, these templates make improvements of tables much easier and editors should not be discouraged from using them. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:35, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Editors should absolutely be discouraged from littering articles with hidden-but-not-really-hidden text. As I have said, if verbosity is a concern, the way forward is a new set of sorting templates. WP:SORT § Sorting with a hidden key is not an alternative method of sorting; it is the method this template is using. Alakzi (talk) 12:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

My mistake; I meant "advice about alternative methods of sorting, such as WP:SORT#Specifying a sort key for a cell". I still maintain that, absent any better templates, these templates are useful tools. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:23, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I can appreciate that these templates are useful in decluttering wikitext, but that comes at a cost. I can look into creating a replacement; however, I'd have to study the sorting logic at a little more depth first. It might be the case that we don't need so very many sorting templates anymore - see meta:Help:Sorting#Forcing the sort mode for a column for new possibilities, and date in particular. In fact, for the documentation example, you don't even need to use a sort value or a sort key anymore; try it below. Alakzi (talk) 13:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

With {{Hs}}	Without
C1 15 December 1999 21 April 1997 21 April 1998	C1 15 December 1999 21 April 1997 21 April 1998

 Disagree with the deprecation Aside from being undiscussed, {{Hidden sort key}} makes a lot easier to create templates that automatically provide the correct keys. Migrating to the new model would require embedding the <td> tag withing such templates, which would be an undesirable design feature --Usien6 ^{msg • his} 15:34, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Migrating to the new model (ala WP:SORT § Specifying a sort key for a cell) can still be done with wikitable syntax and does not require embedding the <td> tag withing such templates. Some templates in Category:Unified table cell templates (see Template:Table cell templates for an overview of the templates) already use this new sorting model with wikitable syntax. An example is the deprecation comment on Template:Sort dash suggesting Template:Sdash as a replacement. There was a discussion about this a while back here: Template talk:N/a § Adding a hidden sort parameter. 50.53.21.2 (talk) 15:18, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

With {{Hs}}	With data-sort-value
C1 15 December 1999 21 April 1997 21 April 1998	C1 15 December 1999 21 April 1997 21 April 1998