Template talk:Infobox horse person

The following is copied from Template talk:Infobox person:

Help creating an infobox

I need an infobox for horse trainers which is on the same line as {{Infobox horseracing personality}} with the following changes and/or parameters:
{{Infobox horse trainer
| common_name =
| birth_name =
| native_name_lang =
| image =
| caption =
| occupation = Horse trainer
| discipline = <--specify the disciplines such as Halter, Performance events, Cutting, Rodeo events, Timed events -->
| birth_date =
| birth_place =
| death_date =
| death_place =
| resting_place =
| resting_place_coordinates =
| major_wins =
| lifetime_achievements =
| honors =
| memorials =
| notable_horses =
| url =
|}}

Any help will be greatly appreciated. ^{Atsme📞📧} 02:13, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

@Atsme: - I recommend instead working on getting the functions you need merged with the existing template. I am fairly confident a WP:TFD discussion would result in a merge anyway as your new template is a bit too narrow of use. -- Netoholic @ 07:23, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

What functions can you add and how? We also have {{Infobox Equestrian}}, but that's designed for Olympic competitors. Speaking for myself, I would not add "futurity wins," I'd say "major wins" as many disciplines, especially outside the USA, don't have futurities, and some that do don't emphasize them. Montanabw^(talk) 08:39, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

@Montanabw: There's little difference between those two templates (especially now that I have brought theri generic biography properties into line with each other). Is there any reason they should not be merged? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:26, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

@Montanabw and Pigsonthewing: I've created a generic Template:Infobox horse person (based on {{Infobox horseracing personality}}) to act as the base for more specific horse-related people templates to become wrappers. I took the opportunity to recast the title as a table caption for accessibility reasons. I've made Template:Infobox horse trainer as an example wrapper. The Template:Infobox horseracing personality could now be made into a wrapper for {{Infobox horse person}} - or actually just a redirect as it uses exactly the same parameters. Of course there's always the chance some mindless bot might come along and "simplify" things by bypassing the redirect, but what ya gonna do? Forget the redirect, it uses |title= instead of |above=, so it would need to be a wrapper.

@Atsme: you gave a list of the parameters you wanted, but didn't indicate how you wanted them displayed. Perhaps you could try out {{Infobox horse trainer}} and see if it does what you want it to. If so, do you think you could write some documentation for it, please? --RexxS (talk) 13:05, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

RexxS, my sincerest thank you, which also extends to others who have answered my call. I apologize for my lack of knowledge regarding infoboxes - the only "wrapper" I know is on a Snickers bar, or what Ice Cube is known for but spelled differently - so in summary I'll just say that I was hoping for a tad more flexibility in the parameters so that we could add association/organizational honors such as Hall of Fame and Lifetime Achievement honors, and also be a bit more specific about the discipline(s) that made them notable, such as Hunter-Jumper, Dressage, Cutting, AQHA western performance events, NCHA Hall of Fame, and so on. I will try infobox horse trainer, and again thank you! ^{Atsme📞📧} 13:37, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

RexxS, the parameters work, except nothing displays beyond "lifetime achievements" and results in the following:

• Warning: Page using Template:Infobox horse person with unknown parameter "upright" (this message is shown only in preview).
• Warning: Page using Template:Infobox horse person with unknown parameter "notable_horses" (this message is shown only in preview).
• Warning: Page using Template:Infobox horse person with unknown parameter "honors" (this message is shown only in preview).

And Rexx, I'll be happy to write the documentation but I don't know where to write it or in what format. Are you talking about the bracketed !--parameter instructions-- or something for the template page? ^{Atsme📞📧} 13:57, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

@Atsme: Thanks for checking! My fault - the wrapper is just a template that translates the names you want to use such as "notable_horses" and "honors" into the names used in the generic box ("horses" and "honours"). I had done the translation the wrong way round. I think I've fixed that now, and the notable_horses/honors should be working, so please would you check again when you get the chance? Once we have that bit working, I can try to sort out what else you need in flexibility. When I'm feeling less idle, I'll write some documentation and ask you to check it to make sure it makes sense if that's ok? Cheers --RexxS (talk) 17:42, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, RexxS. Since:

• {{Infobox horseracing personality}} has 797 transclusions
• {{Infobox equestrian}} has 110 transclusions

I'd be inclined to redirect the former to the new name, making sure that all of its parameter names will work, and then make the 'equestrian' box a wrapper, with a view to having a bot substitute them, then redirecting. I would not make {{Infobox horse trainer}} a wrapper, but a redirect. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:04, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing: At the moment, I'm just trying to get {{Infobox horse trainer}} working for Atsme, but I think my next step would be to make both {{Infobox horseracing personality}} and {{Infobox equestrian}} into wrappers for {{Infobox horse person}}, so that we only have nitty-gritty maintenance in one place. In the long term, I can see that having redirects would be beneficial, but even for something so simple as changing |above= into |title=, it requires going through the hassle of bot approvals, etc. so I'm not in any rush. Especially when I have to then re-write the documentation and deal with complaints from editors who have always used "above" and can't see why they should have to change their habits, just to please a bunch of visually impaired readers. *Sigh* --RexxS (talk) 17:42, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you!! I'm working on the articles now and will advise if I run into any issues. ^{Atsme📞📧} 18:34, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Infobox horse trainer works (I put it in 3 articles already) and is great, but could a wins section be included, not just futurity_wins? Futurities aren't huge in many disciplines. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 19:00, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Agreed, White Arabian Filly - perhaps "Notable wins" or "Championship wins" or better yet "Notable championships" so it's not confused with class wins? ^{Atsme📞📧} 19:50, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I've added a |major_wins= for you to try out, per MontanaBW's suggestion. The label displayed is Wins. I've also created a crude documentation for the template (i.e. a list of the parameters). --RexxS (talk) 19:52, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

P.S. How would folks feel if I moved this entire discussion to Template talk:Infobox horse person and left a link here? It's really not directly relevant to {{Infobox person}} at the moment. --RexxS (talk) 19:55, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Works for me. ^{Atsme📞📧} 21:14, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

• Unless we can do it in such a way as to have BOTH medal-winning parameters AND horse show-type parameters, we should NOT transclude Infobox equestrian, as it has specific parameters for Olympic participants (and Pan-American games, and World Cup and other FEI activities -- But. If it can be done, then Infobox equestrian is probably the better title; Infobox "horse person" is rather colloquial ... I strongly recommend against merging the horse racing one into anything we are doing here, as, unless you can do it perfectly, there are such different parameters it's really going to make that clunky; it would be like using the same infobox for a pop music album and a classical work by Bach.
• As for the "futurities/Championships/Wins" question, I think we must go with either "Major wins" or something like that; as futurities and Championships are not necessarily the same thing. "Major awards" might also work. Keep it as multi-disciplinary as possible. Basically, we need to have Atsme's cutting horse trainers, White Arabian Filly TWH and Saddlebred people, plus, as an example, the Road to the Horse winners, possibly even major breeders (such as Sheila Varian) and so on. If we want the mega-wrapper horse infobox, that is how wide it needs to be. By the way, we also don't really need height and weight, it's a parameter we will never use (relevant only for jockeys, and they are under the horse racing infobox) Montanabw^(talk) 02:05, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
  • I agree with Montanabw about the height and weight parameters. Suggestions: "Native name" is an odd sounding parameter - can we use "Common name" instead? On the wins, could we use "Major wins" and also have "Championships"? The championships would take in aged events, world and national titles, etc. I'm not sure if we need both "Lifetime achievements" and "Honors", the latter sounds more collegiate than horsey. ^{Atsme📞📧} 02:50, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
    • Definitely do NOT use "Native name" -- that's an ethnic distinction in the USA for Native American folks. Perhaps just "other names" if we want maiden names or other parameters from Infobox Person. How about "Major wins/championships" as an all in one? I like "Lifetime achievements," but "Honors" is OK, I'm thinking stuff like USEF Horseman of the year, that sort of thing. Montanabw^(talk) 03:02, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
      • Works for me. ^{Atsme📞📧} 03:08, 29 May 2016 (UTC) ^{We could also just say "Name" for the common name, and keep "Birth name". 03:10, 29 May 2016 (UTC)}
        • 'Native name' means the name in their native language. It's not applicable to native English speakers. Izkala (talk) 14:54, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
        • 'Native name' is used in many biographical infoboxes, not least {{Infobox person}}. We should maintain consistency. If there's an issue, then it needs a global change. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:00, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
          • What do we do for people who use their nickname professionally? Like Bud Dunn--his parents named him Emerson but he is called Bud in the official listings for Trainer of the Year, the official records for his two World Grand Championships, etc. I had a problem with that in the infobox, although I love the rest of it and think we should have had it earlier.
          • Oh, never mind. I see the parameter for that now. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 20:50, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing:: That should be a global change, as many indigenous people have "native" names as well as Europeanized names. "Native" in that context could be seen as mildly perjorative (why "native language" is not, but "native name" is, I can't explain, but it's a gut thing). I'd suggest changing it to "name_native_lang" or something. Or just "other-name" Montanabw^(talk) 19:57, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

|other_name= (or suchlike) is already widely used, with a different meaning. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:25, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

We have "name" which is the title on the infobox, then birthname. I'm ok with anything more detailed being in the first sentence in the lead paragraph - for example: Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu (Hebrew: About this sound בִּנְיָמִין "בִּיבִּי" נְתַנְיָהוּ (help·info); born 21 October 1949). The "name" on the infobox should be the name most used for that person and typically what shows up in the search engines most frequently. The birth name is the legal identifier. It's an English encyclopedia so including the "native name" serves no real purpose to English-speaking readers. ^{Atsme📞📧} 14:53, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm OK with the "other_name" parameter, if we don't use it, it doesn't appear. No harm, no foul. In some cases, it might be useful, as some people have more names than just a birth name and a legal name, such as some Native American people (Sitting Bull, for example). Though it's English wikipedia, we also occasionally see things like two different ways of spelling a name originally written in a non-Roman alphabet. (Mao Tse-Tung, Mao Zedong or -- how many different ways did they spell Muammar Ghadaffi? ) Montanabw^(talk) 02:02, 3 June 2016 (UTC)