Template talk:Kim dynasty (North Korea) family tree

Comments

Where does Kim Il-Soon fit into this tree? Octane ^{[improve me?]} 24.07.09 0553 (UTC)

Update and expand as per [1]? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:45, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Someone can add the whole family? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39382760/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/north-koreas-first-family/#.TyL9qPlciZV — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kizar (talk • contribs) 21:17, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Gender

 Done

See Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Kim_Jong-un/191794. There is a request to indicate the gender of each person in the family tree. I feel that it would be confusing to use different colours as in the proposal and that it would be more clear to add ♂ or ♀ after each name. Any opinion? --Stefan2 (talk) 10:54, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

I also think it would be a good idea (a very good one) to indicate the gender using colors. I disagree that colors would be confusing. The male and female symbols would be better than the present situation but I think inferior to the use of colored boxes. People process information much quicker and easier using color than symbols. Color is frequently used by genealogical websites like geni.com so there is already precedent. Blue and pink are the "obvious" choices unless that convention is western and would be culturally biased to use on a Korean graph. Added individual colors to cells can be done according to the documemnation for Template:chart but it seems like it will take a bit to get the syntax correct. Jason Quinn (talk) 03:02, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and added the colors. What do you think? I think it's a big improvement. Jason Quinn (talk) 03:38, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Add years of birth/death

 Done

I intend to add the birth and death years to this tree. Jason Quinn (talk) 14:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Done. Jason Quinn (talk) 14:04, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Tree is incomplete

As per some of the oldest comments, it appears that this tree is, in fact, incomplete. I'm thinking that a footnote to that effect might be the best way to solve the issue. Simply adding more people might make the tree to big. Jason Quinn (talk) 14:14, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

My comment I guess was referring to the Yahoo link by 李博杰, which is unfortunately no longer working. Jason Quinn (talk) 14:05, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean with "incomplete"? Are there brothers and sisters missing, or do you want it to include more generations? The names of a few earlier relatives are mentioned on Japanese Wikipedia. --Stefan2 (talk) 14:09, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I believe the tree was missing important entries like brothers and sisters. Unfortunately, the source from Yahoo is no longer available. I also cannot remember who is missing. :-/ Jason Quinn (talk) 22:25, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

ja:金日成#系譜 lists more brothers and sisters to Kim Jong-il than the ones listed in this template:

1. 萬一 = Man-il
2. 成一 = Sŏng-il
3. 平一 = P'yŏng-il
4. 英一 = Yŏng-il
5. 清一 = Ch'ŏng-il
6. 女 = "woman"
7. 女 = "woman"
8. 女 = "woman"

All names written using McCune-Reischauer. Normally, each Korean adopts his own transcription system (more or less) for his own name, so the official transcription may differ from the above.

Additionally, the family tree lists cousins, aunts and uncles not in this tree, and it goes one generation further back in time. The tree on Japanese Wikipedia does not contain husbands or wives and is missing some of the other people from this tree. Also, be careful with any 19th century dates in the table on Japanese Wikipedia as those are old style dates (using the lunar calendar). The Japanese tree is unsourced, but many of the people have their own articles on the Japanese and Korean Wikipedias, so it might be possible to dig up sources by looking at those articles. --Stefan2 (talk) 23:35, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Great information, Stefan2. I'll try to work this into the tree footnotes at some point. I think a new footnote for the word "Select" will be needed, that perhaps says explictly that some brothers and sisters have been omitted. And I expand the footnote about alternative spellings to mention McCune-Reischauer. Jason Quinn (talk) 14:35, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I added a footnote and put a link to Korean romanization in another. Jason Quinn (talk) 14:49, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Kim Jong-Un's Child?

There has been many rumors that Kim Jong-Un had a child, but now Dennis Rodman has told The Sun that he had a daughter. Is this worth putting in the family tree? Soffredo (talk) 00:23, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

I read about that. I don't think rumors are worth putting in. Jason Quinn (talk) 04:27, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, the tree is missing lots of other people (see the section immediately above). As long as his daughter doesn't have her own article, I don't think that it is very urgent to add her to the tree. --Stefan2 (talk) 13:03, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Romanization

There's been a few editors making changes to the Romanization of this template. It appears that the manual of style for North Korean articles says to use McCune–Reischauer romanizaiton (but not the DPRK's official variant) when the item (in this case a template) is primarily North Korean. This template is clearly primarily North Korean so that seems to hold here. There's now a problem though... most of the links in the template point to articles using a different Romanization. All the people linked here are primarily North Korean topics so the McCune–Reischauer romanizaiton should probably also be applied there to conform to the manual of style. This will require some discussion and work. Let's first make sure that this template is using proper McCune–Reischauer throughout (and if you think I'm misinterpreting the manual of style, now would be a good time to say so) and come to consensus on that. And then we can decide what to do about the rest of the article names. Don't move or change anything there yet. Jason Quinn (talk) 17:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

The romanisation of personal names is very messy. In general, each South Korean person decides how to romanise his own name. North Korean names also appear in random ways in English-language media. I believe that the idea is to use whatever spelling the person uses himself if such a spelling exists, and otherwise use McCune-Reischauer.

The template currently mostly uses McCune-Reischauer, but with varying solutions for consonants after a space. A name (3 syllables) is supposed to be read as one single word, which makes it tricky to transcribe the word. For example, the space is sometimes placed in the middle of a syllable. The name Kim Il-sung consists of three syllables (KI, MIL and SUNG), but in English it is favourable to put a space between the surname and the given name instead of putting a space in the middle of the surname. The next thing is consonants which change pronunciation depending on what comes before. If the surname is Kim/김 and the given name begins with ㅂ, ㅈ or certain other consonants, then the given name begins with a voiced consonant: "b" or "j", for example "Kim Bo-hyŏn" or "Kim Jŏng-il". On the other hand, if the surname is omitted, or if it is a different surname such as Pak/박, then the given name begins with an unvoiced consonant: "Po-hyŏn" or "Chŏng-il". To English people, it would be awfully confusing if the spelling of a word changes depending on the last letter of the previous word, so you need to decide to either always use voiced or always use unvoiced. The problem is that the template currently is inconsistent in that it uses different solutions to this problem for different personal names. I believe that the usual solution is to use unvoiced letters at the beginning of given names in all cases, and this is seconded by the article Kim Jong-un, where the McCune-Reischauer transcription is given as "Kim Chŏngŭn", not "Kim Jŏngŭn". This is one of the problems that the Revised Romanisation system tried to solve: the system ignores how a word is pronounced, meaning that every word is given an unambiguous spelling and that foreigners will pronounce the words more incorrect than they would otherwise do. --Stefan2 (talk) 18:31, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment There's a current disconnect between the article names and the template's link names. I think that will confuse readers and promote new editors to make changes likely to be reverted or cause trouble. So for the moment, I think the best course of action is to revert back to the romanizaiton that is consistent with the articles despite the manual of style suggesting to use this romanization. After more discussion we can decide whether McCune-Reischauer should actually be used here (or even if the wording of the manual of style should be changed). Jason Quinn (talk) 18:55, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

The articles probably use the spelling which is most commonly seen in English-language media, so that's probably what we should use per WP:USEENGLISH. Some of the less famous people might not frequently appear in English-language media, so there might not be any consistent spelling. --Stefan2 (talk) 19:52, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

update I've made the changes. Currently the names in the template all link directly to the articles' names. For the moment, this seems to be the best solution and promotes the most harmony despite breaking with the manual of style. Now it remains to decide what to actually do here. Perhaps the manual of style itself needs to be tweaked. Jason Quinn (talk) 19:16, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Note A similar problem exists with Template talk:Family of Kim Jong-il. Jason Quinn (talk) 19:36, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Ah. I wasn't aware of that template. I think that the notes about whose brother, parent or child someone is makes that template awfully messy. --Stefan2 (talk) 19:52, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Kim Ju-ae

Kim Ju-ae, Kim Jong-un's daughter, should be added to this template. [Soffredo] 21:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

done. let me know if there are any problems. Jason Quinn (talk) 21:43, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved to Template:Kim dynasty (North Korea) family tree, matching the article Kim dynasty (North Korea). And as a reminder, template names rarely matter a great deal. I've proposed a move of that article, but it's no big deal if the templates don't move with it. --BDD (talk) 23:17, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Template:Kim Jong-il family tree → Template:Kim family tree – This template is not centered around Kim Jong-il, it's about the family as a whole. Charles Essie (talk) 20:23, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

• Alternate rename to Template:Kim Communist Dynasty family tree -- 65.94.76.3 (talk) 00:15, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
• Comment up until 2013, Kim family (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) was not about the North Korean ruling family. According to Kim (Korean surname), this is the most common surname in Korea, so there are many families that someone might create a tree for, so just "Kim family" is insufficiently precise or disambiguous. Many Kims are notable. -- 65.94.76.3 (talk) 00:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
• Comment see talk:Kim family and Template talk:Family of Kim Jong-il for related move requests -- 65.94.76.3 (talk) 00:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
• New proposal, Template:Kim dynasty family tree. Charles Essie (talk) 02:56, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Kim is a very common family name, and the name causes confusion as it isn't clear which Kim you're talking about. I also oppose the current name as this isn't specifically about Kim Jong-il but about all related people around him. The dynasty variant might work. --Stefan2 (talk) 11:14, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: Category:Kim Il-sung family was recently moved to Category:Kim family, which I find a bit confusing. This category title is hardly descriptive, as Kim is the most common surname in Korea, and the family of Kim Il-sung is hardly the most notable. What about 16th century Korean nobles named Kim? What about wealthy business tycoons named Kim? Calling the whole thing "Kim family" is a bit counter-productive in my opinion. "Kim Il-sung family" uses the name of Kim Il-sung (the first president within the successing line of three) as a descriptor to firmly show which Kim family it is about. --benlisquare_T•C•E 00:05, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
• Rename to Template:Kim dynasty family tree to follow recent rename from "Kim family" → "Kim dynasty (North Korea)". (I'm going to advocate the same for the category name.) "Dynasty" is a term used by the RS [2] and it refers to the totality of Kim Il-sung's family (a dynasty) without being easily confused with every other possible "Kim family" combination. czar ♔ 02:23, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
• Comment with the rename of the main article to Kim dynasty (North Korea) this template can safely be renamed to Template:Kim dynasty (North Korea) family tree -- 02:31, 2 January 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.65.128.112 (talk)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Edit request

1

Please add the protection template to the main page, to indicate edit protection. -- 76.65.128.112 (talk) 01:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

• Done Technical 13 (talk) 03:10, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

2

Please move the "see also" section to the /doc page -- 76.65.128.112 (talk) 01:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

• You mean Template:Kim Jong-il family tree/doc? If so, Not done: as that page doesn't exist. Technical 13 (talk) 03:10, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I mean the subpage. And it should exist (it's a mistake to not having it exist), since that's the place where categories are supposed to go. -- 76.65.128.112 (talk) 01:41, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Done Jackmcbarn (talk) 03:44, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 September 2014

I'd like to change the date of birth of Kim Hyong-Jik from 1884 till 1894. 151.229.126.49 (talk) 20:04, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Done Cannolis (talk) 05:19, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Kim Bo-hyon's birth year changed from 1859 to 1871

I changed Kim Bo-hyon's birth year from 1859 to 1871. This was done after investigating this edit to the Kim Hyong-jik article, which also appears to have discovered his birth year was incorrectly listed as 1984 instead of 1894. I have so far only found sources for 1871 for Kim Bo-hyon (e.g., Korea and World Affairs - Volume 27 - Page 251 and a few South Korean news pamplets). The 1859 year was added by me with this edit back in 00:15, 20 January 2013. I believe I just used the year from the Kim Hyong-jik article at the time. Jason Quinn (talk) 23:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I think I found sneaky IP vandalism from 117.216.85.229 on 15:13, 20 February 2012 to the Kim Hyong-jik article that was the source of this confusion. This vandalism was not undone until Iron Melons' edit. Time heals all wounds... just sometimes slowly. Jason Quinn (talk) 00:03, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Add Kim Ung-u

I think we should add Kim Ung-u to the template of the Kim family tree. Angelgreat (talk) 8:35, 28 July 2017 (CST)

Order of marriage

We should find a way to put when people were married. Kim Jong-il had 4 wives, and I would like to know who he was married to when. --Numberguy6 (talk) 17:03, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 October 2021

In note eta (η) change 'Some years like 1982 (Year of the Dog) my [sic] be viewed as better years than others...' to 'Some years like 1982 (Year of the Dog) may be viewed as better years than others...' to fix a typo (my -> may) 2001:8003:DD93:4C00:D4D:5FC:6310:8CAC (talk) 15:26, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:39, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Correction: eight or seven children of Kim Il Sung?

The Wikipedia family tree in footnote Alpha says that Kim Il Sung had a total of eight known children. However, both family trees provided by the Huss and the Lee sources, show seven.

With Kim Jong Suk, he had three children:

• Kim Jong Il (shown in tree)
• Kim Man Il (not in tree, instead and mentioned in footnote)
• Kim Kyong-hui (shown in tree)

With Kim Song Ae, he had four children:

• Kim Pyong Il (shown in tree)
• Kim Kyong Suk (not in tree, not mentioned in footnote)
• Kim Kyong Jin (not in tree, instead and mentioned in footnote)
• Kim Yong Il (not in tree, instead and mentioned in footnote)

The footnote also mentions two other people Kim Hyŏn-nam, and Kim Yŏng-il, which as far as I can tell from the sources, they do not mention them.

The wikipedia article on Kim Il Sung does say that he had additional children outside of marriage, and mentions one by name:

• Kim Hyŏn-nam

However, I can't access the sources that are supposed to back that claim.

Also the article on Kim Il Sung mentions a child that was stillborn-- and maybe that is the eighth child the footnote accounted for. That could account for the eighth legitimate child.

And, Kim Kyong Suk who should be named in the footnote, is not mentioned, and should be be added.

If anyone else knows any better, please let me know. Otherwise I'll go ahead and modify the footnote to be as follows:

To keep the tree of manageable size, it omits five out of the seven known legitimate children of Kim Il Sung. Other children not shown in the tree are: Kim Man-il (1944-1947; child of Kim Jong Suk), Kim Kyong-jin (1952-; child of Kim Song-ae), Kim Yong-il (1955-2000; child of Kim Song-ae), and Kim Kyong Suk (1951-; child of Kim Song-ae). A stillborn daughter is also omitted. Kim Il Sung was reported to have had other children with women who he was not married to; they included Kim Hyŏn-nam (born 1972). Also, only some of the descendants of Kim Jong Il and Kim Jung Un (Kim Il Sung's successors) are included.

Thank you. Al83tito (talk) 04:59, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Following the proposed revision as outlined here above, I have now edited the family tree's footnote alpha. Al83tito (talk) 05:05, 13 May 2024 (UTC)