Template talk:Head of Aisin Gioro

Yuyan

I replaced Yuyan with Pujie as pretender. Pujie was the brother of the last emperor and a public figure in China. He was covered as a pretender by The New York Times and numerous other RS. The Yuyan story comes from a travel adventure book called The Empty Throne (1993). It did not get any coverage in more mainstream sources. See Line of succession to the former Chinese throne, which I have rewritten. Pujie died in 1994 and Jin Youzhi, a half-brother of Pujie and Puyi, is next in line under the succession law. Here is an RS that presents him as a pretender. Kauffner (talk) 04:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I have to add that pretender status has nothing to do with how active someone might be. The issue is how they are presented in the sources available to us. The mainstream press doesn't cover pretenders much, but this Website struck me a good source. (It is used as a source for Wiki material on pretenders from various other nations.) I have scoured the net, but I don't see Yuyan or Hengzhen presented as pretenders be anyone other than Wiki mirrors. Kauffner (talk) 16:57, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

For the record, royalark.net has since been WP:DEPRECATED. TompaDompa (talk) 22:24, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 26 June 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nom. (non-admin closure) Natg 19 (talk) 05:43, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

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Template:Pretenders to the Chinese throne → Template:Pretenders to the Manchukuo throne – The new title will be more specific (detailed discussion: Talk:Line of succession to the former Chinese throne) George6VI (talk) 14:33, 26 June 2017 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:26, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. The proposed title does not reflect how the RS handles this issue. See The Age: "Heir to China's throne celebrates a modest life." This is a full length article on the current pretender, yet there is no mention of Manchukuo. Whiff of greatness (talk) 15:12, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

 Comment: Qing dynasty was abolished in 1911, while the law you mentioned was made after that year, it was made in Manchukuo, it's illogical to say the rule can apply to whole China, especially that Manchukuo claimed to be independent from China and China was a repulic at that time already. The new title may be more specific and there are some more discussion is Talk:Line of succession to the former Chinese throne. Comparing with a news, official documents and whether the law is effective is more reliable. - George6VI (talk) 07:41, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

• I didn't mention any law. It's a question of what reliable sources call the subject. It you can find any English language source that calls it a "Manchukuo throne," or identifies it as a Manchukou anything (as opposed to a Chinese something) I'd be surprised.
  A "Manchukuo pretender" is not notable anyway. If that's all you think these people are, this proposal belongs at WP:AFD. Puyi's travails as pretender were chronicled in The Last Emperor. Everyone understood that title to mean "Last emperor of China," not "Last emperor of Manchukuo." His brother Pujie is certainly notable as well. In short, this is one of the best-known pretender lines. Whiff of greatness (talk) 13:47, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Puyi being the last emperor of China and then he made that succession law is the two separate things. (I'm surprised you didn't get what I mean: how that line of succession appear is mentioned in the first paragraph!) - George6VI (talk) 15:41, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose per User:Whiff of greatness. Anyway, the title doesn't matter that much as it does not appear to readers. —  AjaxSmack  21:25, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

• Withdraw. Supposed title didn't gain enough approval. - George6VI (talk) 05:28, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Title change

During the discussion in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Chinese throne, there was a consensus about Puyi's relatives being referred as Chinese pretenders, which was considered as a violation of WP:NOR, making the article to be renamed as Head of the House of Aisin Gioro. This is a highly affiliated template, as such, the title should change for same reason; it's what my recent revisions had but now it's reverted. As we got a consensus on this topic, so I hope no one will object my edits. Also, it would be better if the template can rename. - George6VI (talk) 14:25, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I proposed the title change at LOSTTFCT as a way splitting the difference between the various points of view in the discussion so that we could arrive at consensus, which we did. I don't see the result as a mandate for these further changes that you are implementing, many of which have not supported by anyone other than you. "China" is a name that is far more recognizable than "Aisin Gioro" or "Manchukuo," and that is a factor consider. Whiff of greatness (talk) 08:43, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I know more people know more about China/Qing dynasty than Aisin Gioro, but this "recognizability" may cause unneeded misunderstanding to those who are unfamiliar with the topic. I know what a "pretender" means in English, but to those who don't know its actual and correct definition, may think that Jin Yuzhang actually pretends to be the emperor, which he and his father and uncle never did. Considering that English is a global language, the title and the terms should be more prudent and objective to the truth, just like what you wrote, "they should all be moved to something less bombastic." Plus, other than Pujie, Puren, and Jin Youzhi articles, there are no further usage of the template, and the articles already tell the readers that they are Chinese, so no one would not know that they are Chinese and it's unneeded to mention that they are from China again. - George6VI (talk) 09:23, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 31 May 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the template to any particular title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 02:15, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

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Template:Pretenders to the Chinese throne → Template:Head of Aisin Gioro – Pretenders to the Chinese throne is a very loaded and non-neutral term, and has no basis in reality, and is not supported by any reliable sources. The people listed in this template other than Puyi never had pretensions to the Chinese throne, and Wikipedia should not be suggesting that they were pretenders to the long-extinct throne. Moving to Head of Aisin Gioro and retitling the template as "Heads of the House of Aisin Gioro since 1912" is appropriate. BabelStone (talk) 10:42, 31 May 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz (talk) 13:52, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. Although Puyi is one of the best-known ex-royals, the reader is unlikely to know the name Aisin Gioro. I suggest that the template be moved to Heads of the formerly ruling house of China. The lazy mouse (talk) 08:20, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 23 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (I would relist based on the one oppose in the 2018 discussion, but that user is blocked as a sockpuppet. Other than that, there has been no opposition to this title for 1 week here and 2 weeks in 2018.) (closed by non-admin page mover) SilverLocust 💬 22:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

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Template:Pretenders to the Chinese throne → Template:Head of Aisin Gioro – The current name and message of the template is facially ridiculous. No one from the House of Aisin Gioro is a pretender to the Qing throne, they have been CCP functionaries instead. It's embarrassing that this has sat here for this long. Remsense诉 20:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject China has been notified of this discussion. Remsense诉 20:26, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom, current name looks like nonsense to me. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 18:32, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.